Freedom of speech and the left

JKR wrote:

Hopefully there will also be elections in Gaza one of these years that finally removes Hamas from power.

There were elections, and presumably you know how that got fucked up. Takes us right back to the point of why Hamas is an asset to Zionists, and supported by Netanyahu.

They make an easy target for false accusations that Palestinians are violent, can't govern themselves, and won't accept an Israeli state.

Palestine and the Harlot Left Wing

https://english.almayadeen.net/articles/opinion/palestine-and-the-harlot...

"...Another set of narratives aims to discredit Hamas as a national liberation movement by divorcing it from the Palestinian people.

Such narratives were common among those who presented themselves as standing in solidarity with the Palestinian people and being critical of Israeli aggression.

The objective of these narratives is to prevent support for the resistance among Westerners sympathetic to the Palestinian cause..."

See also:

"Despite the Occupation's assassination of the movement's leaders multiple times, there are still people who believe in the conspiracy theory that Israel created Hamas. This claim lacks any logical basis..."

Did Israel Create Hamas?

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231115-did-israel-create-hamas/

6079_Smith_W wrote:

They make an easy target for false accusations that Palestinians are violent, can't govern themselves, and won't accept an Israeli state.

End quote.

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Opinion polls have shown that Hamas is very popular among Palestinians.

JKR wrote:

I agree that it obviously lacks any logical basis as Hamas fervently supports the killing of all Jewish Israelis and the complete destruction of Israel. Palestinians support Hamas and know that Hamas is in power because of their support and not Israel’s.

I do understand why you and others are dancing around it and trying to pretend it is not true (and why NDPP is posting things claiming it is a conspiracy theory - kinda funny, considering).

But the statements made by Netanayahu and members of his cabinet, and their actions to support Hamas (including helping them get funding) are clear. The fact that Hamas has support in Gaza is irrelevant. The point here is that as much as Netanyahu claims he wants to destroy them, his government actively supports them as a means of spoiling a two-state solution.

I'd venture to say that he probably also understands he will never wipe out opposition, and that even if he does manage to crush Hamas this genocide has created a whole new generation of resistance. He is likely happy about that too because it continues the cycle of violence.

This isn't something cooked up in an hour-long podcast from someone's basement. It is from mainstream sources, including the Times of Israel - see above). But again, the words spoken are clear.

Some other examples, from a recent CBC article, with a direct reference to that logical basis you claim you cannot see:

Yuval Diskin, former head of Israel's Shin Bet security service, told the daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth in 2013 that "if we look at it over the years, one of the main people contributing to Hamas's strengthening has been Bibi Netanyahu, since his first term as prime minister."

In August 2019, former prime minister Ehud Barak told Israeli Army Radio that Netanyahu's "strategy is to keep Hamas alive and kicking … even at the price of abandoning the citizens [of the south] … in order to weaken the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah."

The logic underlying this strategy, Barak said, is that "it's easier with Hamas to explain to Israelis that there is no one to sit with and no one to talk to."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035

You are deliberately ignoring the point.

That Hamas has some support in Gaza is not surprising.

That Netanyahu claims to oppose them, and wants to crush them, while his government is bankrolling them, speaks openly in support of them, and consults them on government policy shows them to be hypocrites who are not dealing in good faith, and are more interested in perpetuating violence than finding a peaceful solution.

Again, their clear statements and actions are there. And it is a well-understood fact even in Israel.

This is one of the major reasons Netanyahu's popularity in Israel has plummeted. His cynical support of Hamas is a majour reason most Israelis now oppose him and why he will likely be replaced before or after the next Israeli election. When both Likud and Hamas are replaced the chances of establishing peace through a two state solution or something similar to it will be drastically increased.

That being said, Israel did not create Hamas and Hamas’s existence has been almost completely based on its support from Palestinian Arabs, other Arabs, and Muslims.

Arabs did not create JKR's preferred party, Otzma Yehudit. But like all racists JKR only wants to call one side evil and give their own ethnic group a free pass. In this case a free pass to commit genocide and call it self defence.

NDPP wrote:

With Canadian 'leftists' ably assisting by smearing the Palestinian resistance.

Oh? Who said that? And what exactly did they say that you consider a smear?

Thanks though, for confirming that Hamas isn't only supported by Muslims, as JKR implies.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Arabs did not create JKR's preferred party, Otzma Yehudit. But like all racists JKR only wants to call one side evil and give their own ethnic group a free pass. In this case a free pass to commit genocide and call it self defence.

End quote.

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Even more ad hominem attacks! Even more straw man arguments! Even more mind reading! Kropotkin, can you stop with the ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, and mind reading???

I oppose Otzma Yehudit. I support a two state solution or some kind of similar solution like establishing a confederation and I support political parties that do so and I oppose political parties that don’t. I think Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Arabs both have made mistakes in the past which has mostly been not supporting a solution that supports the self determination of both Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews. I think the right of self determination and the right of security should be respected equally and implemented equally for both Israelis and Palestinians in the establishment of a permanent peace agreement between Palestinians and Israelis.

JKR wrote:

I wasn’t referring to Gazans. I was referring to the Muslims outside of Gaza in places like Iran who aren’t also Arab that support Hamas. Iran has obviously given much more support to Hamas than Israel.

Sure. See my response just above to NDPP. I am not surprised at the attempt to claim a religious squabble as an attempt to cover up what is really a political and colonial struggle.

But you don't want Jews to be blamed here?

(and in fact no one here is; that is just passive aggression and hypocrisy on your part)

You can't have it both ways and try to pretend this is about alleged Muslim intolerance. There is a huge bloc of Muslims who want a peaceful two-state solution.

Even Iran (again, a political state) is starting to wake up to the consensus of support for the two-state solution:

https://www.stimson.org/2024/iran-tempers-rejectionism-to-muslim-consens...

JKR wrote:

...says volumes and volumes about the century old Jewish Israeli - Palestinian Arab conflict.

"Century old Jewish Israeli" ? Seriously?

Do you support peace or not? I'd say it says a lot more about far more recent external political dynamics than revisionism about alleged old feuds.

And if you seriously support the existence of the State of Israel you might want to give your head a shake, because without a two-state solution, and without external financial support they are on borrowed time.

epaulo13 wrote:

..they are not on the same page. israel is the colonizer occupier with all the power and hamas is a part of the occupied. your attempts to make them equal is propaganda for the purposes of justifying occupation and colonization. 

eta:..as has been pointed out before hamas leadership in palestine are the children of israeli targeted assignation operation. their parents were hamas. murdered by israel. and you call this the same page.

What about during the Ottoman Empire and the British Mandate when Arabs attacked Jews and expelled them in the area of current day Israel? Hamas has the same outlook the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Mufti Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, had from the end of the First World War to after the establishment of the State of Israel. The Grand Mufti was the political leader of Arabs living around Jerusalem from before the first world war until the creation of the state of Israel. He supported the expulsion of Jews from Jerusalem before and during the First World War. He supported attacking and killing Jews during the British Mandate. And during World War 2 was a quasi member of Hitler’s Nazi government where the Nazis gave him a mansion to live in and a lavish budget to live on. The Grand Mufti visited and supported the Nazi concentration camps that killed millions of Jews. The Grand Mufti wanted the German military to kill every Jew in the world including in the Middle East, Jerusalem, and the World. A direct link can be made from the Grand Mufti to the modern day leaders of Hamas and other such current political groups. Discrimination and violence against Jews goes back centuries in the area of modern day Israel going back centuries during the times of the rule by the Ottoman Empire.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini

6079_Smith_W wrote:

And if you seriously support the existence of the State of Israel you might want to give your head a shake, because without a two-state solution, and without external financial support they are on borrowed time.

End quote.

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It sounds like you support the destruction of the State of Israel. Governments of Israel have at times supported a two state solution and every time that has been refused by Palestinians. Arabs could have accepted the two state solution in the UN’s Partition Plan but chose continuous wars instead. Arabs could have accepted different forms of a two state solution during the British Mandate but instead refused and supported expelling Jews instead. During the Ottoman Empire Jews could have been supported around Jerusalem by Arab officials of the Ottoman Empire but instead they made Jews second class “dhimmi” citizens. The Ottoman Empire’s purposely high levels of taxation around Jerusalem was also a part of treating Jews around Jerusalem as second class citizens and opposing them living in their homeland established 3,000 years ago.

Hamas and Netanyahu being on the same page

..this is the lie you were spouting. this is topic you are avoiding. 

JKR wrote:

It sounds like you support the destruction of the State of Israel.

Where did you get that from? In fact I am saying the opposite, if you have been reading for comprehension. It is Netanyahu who is playing the "river to the sea" game.

Again, what do you base that accusation on? On my saying that if Israelis want to keep their state they need to get serious about recognizing a Palestinian state? That should be obvious.

So just to clarify, based on your last post are you in support of Israel taking over all Palestinian lands from the river to the sea? And if so, do you really see that as a way of ending this conflict?

epaulo13 wrote:

..like i said that's a lie. 

Are you talking to me?Sorry if I am misreading, but I am not sure.

Hamas might not see it as a partnership, but it doesn't change the fact they are being used by Netanyahu's government to spoil a two state solution.

There is nothing in that which precludes the colonial dynamic. Imperialists using resistance movements to prevent a peaceful settlement is actually quite common.

..not you smith. sorry for the confusion. 

@ epaulo

Yes. all my posts here have been focusing on the hypocrisy in Netanyahu's government.

As for what is happening in Palestine, it is hard to make an equivalent judgment of people and parties who are facing genocide. That is not to say I think Hamas is operating entirely in good faith, nor that I think their solution is best (I do not) but desperate people do desperate things. It is far different for those with power and control, and even moreso for international power brokers.

This Is Not And Has Never Been About Hamas

https://twitter.com/IndJewishVoices/status/1759608948854792555

"This is a war against the Palestinian people. Israel has been committing ethnic cleansing against the Palestinian people in the occupied territories and Israel itself since before its very inception..."

See #356 on what Smith/JKR are up to here.

Police beatings of pro-Palestinian schoolchildren spark outrage in Italy

ROME, Feb 23 (Reuters) - Footage of police beating pro-Palestinian students drew broad condemnation in Italy on Friday, with the opposition calling for the interior minister to address parliament over the episode.

Student marches were blocked by police in the Tuscan cities of Florence and Pisa, with images of officers vigorously using their truncheons on school-age protesters in Pisa triggering outrage on social media and from politicians.

The videos showed the students, who appeared to be protesting peacefully, retreating under a hail of blows from law enforcers wearing helmets and full riot gear.

"Is this how you beat your own children," one young woman is heard shouting.

The Pisa police were not immediately available for comment.

Elly Schlein, the leader of the centre-left Democratic Party, posted on Facebook a video of the "unacceptable" scenes of "students trapped in an alleyway, charged and beaten by the police".

She said Giorgia Meloni's right-wing government, which came to office in 2022 promising to crack down on illegal immigration and promote law and order, was creating a "climate of repression" in the country.

quote:

Teachers at Pisa's Russoli high school, which is close to the street where the march took place and attended by some of the students involved, said they were "stunned" by the treatment of the protesters, most of whom were minors.

"We found boys and girls from our classes trembling and shocked ... from the beatings they received," the teachers said in a statement, demanding that someone be held responsible for the "shameful day"......

Israel already has taken over, and has control of, all the land from the river to the sea.  And the governments Israel has had for the last 15 years have made it clear that they will never agree to a viable, independent, Palestinian state.  The only solution is an internationally imposed two state solution, which the U.S. almost assuredly would block, or one state with equal rights for all.

josh wrote:

The only solution is an internationally imposed two state solution, which the U.S. almost assuredly would block, or one state with equal rights for all.

End quote.

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Ultimately I think it’ll have to be up to the Palestinians and Israelis to decide what solution they want.

JKR wrote:

josh wrote:

The only solution is an internationally imposed two state solution, which the U.S. almost assuredly would block, or one state with equal rights for all.

End quote.

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Ultimately I think it’ll have to be up to the Palestinians and Israelis to decide what solution they want.

With the “unbiased” U.S. the only other party in the room? Right. The bargaining power between the two is already ridiculously unbalanced.

Luckily Palestinians and Israelis have other political leaders who can eventually negotiate a peace agreement.