Is the left on the right side

But we are drifting off topic which is why the left isn't getting through to people. A timely article just came up. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/immigration-housing-fears-economy-constru...

To help, Canada has just announced record immigration targets — 1.5-million new Canadians within the next three years — with plans to bring in 500,000 people in 2025. Federal officials say that will help boost the economy, but the targets have also spiked anxiety about where all these new citizens will make their homes, given the country's ongoing housing crisis....

"It's not just houses, it's daycares, it's transit, it's hospitals. What's the plan, guys? Like, you can't just keep throwing people at it."

I have tried to raise this topic so many times. The plan seems to be to privatize through collapsing our social supports. They will become more and more inadequate but we won't be able to afford to shore them up using the excuse of climate change spending being more urgent or the deficit being out of control or whatever. The response to the Covid crisis was not to strengthen the health care system once the first wave past, or the second, or the third. 

There is increasing unease over immigration numbers and it isn't all racism and zenophobia. Realistic immigration needs to become a central focus on the left. We are not going to have open borders. What we should be focused on is ensuring that social spending increases in conjunction with immigration for starters. 

Whenever we have waves of immigration, with the exception of Ukraine, we should tie it to specific actions we have taken to cause the immigration or refugee crisis if it can be communicated simply. Not Ukraine because they want us there. Haiti and Venezuela are good first choices. 

People aren't going to support a left that tells them they need to suffer because of Canada's guilt. The left is addressing the fears of Canadians that immigration is too high by suggesting it should be increased and accusing them of racism or xenophobia. 

The negative impacts of immigration can't be discussed on babble. We could have grand battles of competing links and tirades against each other. Actually delving into the topic, no way. The position of the left has been determined. No further information required. No discussion. If anyone disagrees they are to be corrected. There are no negatives to immigration end of story. 

Why I am always in trouble and why it is worse/better now.

The situation has changed because I have grown over my years at babble. Not long ago I came to the realization that I learned to handle anything thrown my way. When attacked don’t go on the defence, call it out and go for the jugular. I have not taken that approach with Susan but it is an exception. I’m taking the medium-high road.

Another poster once said that we shouldn’t criticize other countries like Russia and China. We should address our own behavior first.

I identify strongly as being on the left. I am for socialist programs, against capital punishment etc. I have long been frustrated by the belief that the left is “right” in the sense of having solutions that will move us forward, yet doesn’t seem able to gain significant support. I’ve thought about it for years because the ultimate goal must be to gain enough support to force change.

Whenever I have tried to approach the topic the response is that propaganda is at fault. The left carries no responsibility for not having advanced our causes on the economic front. I don’t buy that. We have social media now. If our ideas are so great we should be able to find a means to spread the good news. I’ve come up with a few ideas on why we are failing or how we could do better but being critical of the left is taken as an affront or even attack rather than a sincere attempt at finding out why we aren’t getting through. Why does the working class support the right? What is the right doing right? There doesn’t seem to be any interest in finding out why we don’t reach the 99%.

I question until I feel I have a handle on the narrative being presented around an issue. If I find holes I point them out. I want to see if they can be filled or not. I want the logic. If I agree I want to know how to defend the position I am taking. That leads me to challenge a lot.

I have long criticized the left for its support for Quebec nationalism. The notwithstanding clause was not opposed by the left when it was first used. Now it is being used again and the left is up in arms. I blame the left for not opposing it in the first place.

Perhaps my greatest contravention was denouncing Chomsky and to a lesser extent Dimitri Lascaris. Chomsky, for claiming the Maiden revolution was a coup and claiming Boris Johnson went to Ukraine to order Zelensky not to sign a peace deal that was on the verge of success. Lascaris for claiming demonstrations in Europe were anti-NATO without mentioning they were far right demonstrations.

I suggested it is supporting imperialism to encourage two empires to negotiate the borders of another country. (Ukraine)

As expected my accusation that the men of babble and of the left in general embraced sex-positive feminism completely turning against traditional feminists and actively opposing them, did not go over well.

The list of my transgressions goes on and on and on. I am in so much trouble now I will never get out of it but that’s okay. I know how to handle it.

Disagreement is not an attack. Have you seen Susan's posts insulting and denigrating me? How about Kropotkin's? These were followed up by praise for Susan and suggestions that I was in some way silencing her or disrespecting her by not showing deference. 

Sure I can be wrong. It can be proven through reasoned discussion. It would be super easy to prove I am wrong by someone starting a discussion on the problems caused for citizens by immigration and refugee intake. I'm sure as hell not going to do it. I'm in enough trouble.

Could you please simply post as a representative of one point of view, rather than as if everybody else is wrong and you are the only one who could possibly be right?

Do you mean like Kropotkin? Or maybe NDPP? Who here does not begin with the premise that they are right?

I have been baited for years and years through direct and indirect ad hominem attacks. Ad ignorantum attacks have been another long time favorite. Then there is the particularly popular strawman arguments that misrepresent my views tying me in knots trying to explain myself over and over again. 

These are followed by your invariably concerned posts advising me on how I can improve my approach, or attitude, particularly toning down the confidence I have in my point of view and argument. 

The thing is I don't have a problem anymore. I don't need oldgoat to step in on my behalf. I don't need anyone to agree with me. I am enjoying my time on the board more than ever. Save your concern for the people making fools of themselves going apeshit. 

 I know that I am holding back. Some of the posters here are super easily baited. I could discreetly sharpen my claws on them. It's tempting now that I know the babble game but I don't want to waste my time for a giggle. 

This is taking way too much time so I will be cutting back but I now have a topics file for the main issues I feel like discussing. I have a means of making sure my voice isn't buried by an avalanche of nonsense posts. I can take my time.

So far I am going with these topics, the failure of the left to gain support, and the sex industry as a whole, not just prostitution. The failure of modern feminism which has prevailed over the massive increase in the objectification and stereotyping of women is also of interest to me.

Individuals are responsible for their actions. I nor anyone else on the left is responsible for doing things that you want, that is up to you. Your constant use of "the left" as a bogey man is why I am engaging with you. If you stop putting all your angst unto others and claiming they did not do enough for YOU then maybe I will try a nicer tone.

I have made it clear I include myself on the left. It is valid to criticise a movement. That you take it personally is not on me. I'm not suffering from angst either but good word for wordle. The projection of emotion is another favored babble technique. 

Use whatever ridiculous tone you like. If you want to make yourself look ignorant be my guest. I could not care less whether you engage me or not. Have at it. I'm not intimidated. 

I don't think I am taking anything personally that isn't intended personally. Do you have a specific example?

Mobo2000 wrote:

  Pondering:   I have no criticisms of your tone or posting style to offer.   Your style does seem to invite reaction here but I'm glad you are posting.   I have disagreed and do disagree with you on some issues and agree on others. 

Thank you. I don't mind disagreement at all. I don't even mind the trolling with the exception that it's likely discouraging some people from posting and preventing interesting discussions from happening. 

I'd like to discuss military culture with Paladin and Webgear but anything they said would be twisted and used to attack them. A few posters here would do anything they could to disrupt discussion. It's not worth it. It wouldn't be a structured discussion like with prostitution so it would be hard to protect the conversation by providing leap frog links to the most important posts. 

Mobo2000 wrote:

  In my opinion there is a difference between the liberal mainstream and the left.   There is a version of the left that serves to just amplifies the liberal mainstream message and one that critiques it.   I think some of your arguments would be clearer to me, and perhaps better received overall, if you apportioned blame or fault more percisely rather than to a general "left".   I don't think Noam Chomsky and Joe Biden are part of the same left, for example.   The liberal-led mainstream left has considerable institutional and political power, and are in control.  

Thanks for the heads-up. I have tried at times to define the left I am referring to. I am usually referring to what I call the establishment left as represented by Counterpunch and Truthout etc. I think maybe academic far left is the best description. 

I don't consider the Democrats or the Liberals to be on the left at all. Trudeau talks a good game but CERB was designed to end and used contractors rather than going through UIC and the tax department. It could have been a minimum income trial run. 

That both are left of the respective conservative parties doesn't make them left-wing but I guess that is just my rejection of the movement of the Overton window. The NDP is centre left now. 

Leftist movements are guided by the academic left so I will go with that. The epaulo left is more grounded and worker driven. The focus is on impacting specific issues in practical ways. 

Mobo2000 wrote:

  With regards to future topics you want to discuss,  I am still not sure if gender critical positions can be discussed on babble.   If it turns out they can be, and you want to return to the subject, I will participate as well. 

The prostitution topics are a trial run on my plan to prevent sabotage through dropping bread crumbs in the form of  link guides to anyone who wants to just read the informative posts and skip the rest. All posts can be edited so I can return to them to add new links to the threads I have started. The first post in each thread will reference significant posts within that thread. 

I do hope to return to the gender theory conversation but I think it will be quite a while because I am really interested in the prostitution topics at the moment and it is multi- layered. It will be good practice for discussion gender theory if it is permitted. 

kropotkin1951 wrote:

You are arguing it is a good law and others are arguing it is a bad law and pointing out which government passed what they think is a bad law. If you think Harper passed a good laws then why is it wrong to say you support his polices on the issue. Your pretzel logic is amusing but hard to follow. If one did not keep track of which government passed which laws what would one have to base voting on.

Harper has nothing to do with examining why the Bedford decision overturned the former laws concerning prostitution and how that might apply to Bill C 36. You (and JKR) are trying to tar both me and the Bill based on it passing under the Harper government rather than on the merits of the Bill.

You came in to be disruptive and to make the thread about me not to discuss the Bill. 

That has been one of your favorite tactics for years. Let's all talk about Pondering. You trash threads you don't like to prevent people from debating.

You amuse yourself at the expense of the board members and moderators whose time you have sucked up over the years. 

You = troll cabal

Up until even a few days ago I still liked you all, respected you, but now I understand how calculated it all was. All that time I was sincerely trying to communicate and have constructive discussions your only interest was wasting my time tying me in knots trying to defend myself. The Ten Commandments of Logic was the final key. Once I realized the frequency of use I knew it was deliberate. Everything fell into place.

 I’m the only regular target you have left because you have driven off everyone who disagreed with you. You have no respect for the board or the moderators regardless of what you claim. They are sincerely trying to keep this place open for us while you deliberately start shit on the board making their jobs harder.

I don’t even know if you understand the damage you have done in deliberately turning threads you don’t like toxic.

You don't get to decide who is on the left. If you choose to personalize comments directed at the left as a whole that is on you. For example, epaulo is also on the left but his left is community based and rises up. The academic left is quite different. 

Paladin, your brevity is an excellent counterpoint to my loquacious.

People can agree/disagree with the various approaches without fitting in a specific category. I don't know all the names for the different kinds of left. I describe what I am referring to as best I can without studying. I would rather study issues than political philosophies. I'm not officially naming anything. 

To me an academic leftist is a professional intellectualist not a politician.

I think we are in agreement on the vast majority of issues even if we strongly disagree on a few.

Even if we didn't I would still want to be able to explore each other's reasoning which might still take the form of debate but with the goal of understanding each other's perspective not just trying to beat each other down. 

I would discuss abortion with a full on evangelical anti-abortionist if they were sincerely willing to listen to my side too. We would never come to an agreement or compromise but maybe we could tone down the hostility. I don't agree that abortion is murder but I can respect that for someone who genuinely does believe that current laws are a horror show especially if they were seeped in the propaganda. They might be comforted to know that abortion rates are lower in countries where it is legal and freely  available. Maybe if they were more aware of the real numbers concerning late term abortion and why they happen it would lessen their angst. Abortion isn't a good thing. It is a sometimes needed medical intervention which is between a woman and her doctor just like any other procedure. On demand doesn't mean women are using it as birth control but if a woman were so irresponsible it would probably be a good thing for her not to have a baby. 

laine lowe wrote:

  Why do you say abortion isn't a good thing. It is a safe medical procedure now that it is legal that should be considered one of many advancements made in gynagcological health.

Pondering wrote:

Abortion isn't a good thing. It is a sometimes needed medical intervention which is between a woman and her doctor just like any other procedure

You think I would fall for your tricks after what you did in the feminist forum. Start defending myself again. 

https://babble.rabble.ca/babble/feminism/female-sexuality-and-impact-our...
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