Free Palestine!

..you don't even try to understand the palestinians side. you are blind to what millions of people around the world are seeing. where does that position even come from. your trying to sell an illusion to people immersed in politics. for the past umpteen years. as if this was just another debate. 

..great interview.

..more

quote:

Meanwhile, Hebrew University in Jerusalem is coming under criticism for suspending an internationally renowned Palestinian professor for saying Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Nadera Shalhoub-Kevorkian is a world-renowned feminist scholar whose extensive work has focused on the impacts of militarization, surveillance and violence on the lives of Palestinian women and children. She made the remarks in an interview on Israel’s Channel 12 on Monday, where she also said it was time to, quote, “abolish Zionism.”

The next day, the university issued a statement saying, quote, “As a proud Israeli, public, and Zionist institution, the Hebrew University strongly condemns Professor Shalhoub-Kevorkian’s recent shocking and outrageous statements. … To ensure a safe and conducive environment for our students on campus, the university has decided to suspend Professor Shalhoub-Kevorkian from teaching activities, effective immediately,” they wrote.

Professor Shalhoub-Kevorkian had been under pressure to resign from the university since late October, when she joined over 1,000 academics around the world in signing a petition calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza. Following her signature, the leadership of Hebrew University sent her a formal letter denouncing her and pressuring her to resign. Yesterday, Palestinian students on the Hebrew University campus demonstrated against professor Shalhoub-Kevorkian’s suspension on campus and chanted the Palestinian national song “Mawtini” in protest....

epaulo13 wrote:

..banned because of your racism re arabs. i would like to see your ugly politics out of these palestinian israeli threads actually. after thinking about it. but i don't have the power to do that. so no i'm not silencing you i'm stating my opinion my political position on a left leaning board. the politics you've been pushing here are much farther to the right. they overlap in some cases with israeli propaganda machines. 

..by they way i complained about this before. some time back while our moderator was intervening.  this racism i mean. i've been open about it.

Saying Arab countries militarily attacked Israel is not racist. Saying Arab countries didn’t even recognize the existence of Israel until Egypt did in 1979 isn’t racist. Saying Jordan didn’t even recognize Israel until 1994 isn’t racist. Saying many Arab countries still don’t recognize Israel is not racist. Saying Hamas members have said they think it’s good if Israelis are killed and Jews are killed is not racist. Saying UNWRA has taught antisemitism is not racist. Opposing Hamas and other like minded groups is not racist.

You seem to be studiously ignoring this comment of yours, JKR.

Arab countries don’t want to help Palestinians because their primary goal is the destruction of the state of Israel.

Not only very racist. It is also false, and in fact the opposite of the lengths some of these nations are going to to keep the peace.

What you want Egypt and Jordan to do - help Israel out with its genocide by letting it push refugees out of their homeland and over the border - would end that peace.

Paladin1 wrote:

JKR wrote:

epaulo, you’re the one who said I should be banned from here. I never said anyone’s voice should be silenced. I’m all for everyone being heard including you, Palestinians, Israelis, Zionists, Hamas supporters, etc….

It's a good think you have Jewish privilege according to Epaulo.

Some here have even said “antisemitism is a trick!”

epaulo13 wrote:

I think we can definitely live together without the Zionist ideology, if we can talk more in terms and in concepts of justice, of equality, of fairness, of multiplicity of ideas, and not using one ideology to claim that we are here and the rest should be excluded. And I think, Amy, you see it today clearly in Gaza, what is going on today in Gaza, when babies are dying, decomposed in incubators. And I write about unchilding. I write about the attacks on children. I write about the attacks on communities. What we see in Gaza, turning it into a collective grave, is really very telling. It’s really the culmination of a very, very, very violent ideology. So I guess it’s time to reconsider the Zionist ideology, because it started, since the early ’90s, with violence, with dispossession and with lots of massacres, and to call for a discussion that is away from that very racist and very unfair and inhumane ideology....

epaulo, this outlook on Zionists is inaccurate and dehumanizing.

Why do you think it’s ok to dehumanize them? Why do you think it’s ok to say peace can only come without Zionists? Do you realize these sentiments open the door to hatred and violence? Do you understand how these ideas preclude establishing peace between Palestinian and Israelis? Do you understand that a majority of Israelis are Zionists? Do you realize supporting the elimination of Zionism is supporting genocide?

6079_Smith_W wrote:

JKR wrote:

epaulo, have you read or watched anything by Zionists that wasn’t biased against them or aimed at disparaging them? Do you agree with any Zionist viewpoints?

That's quite the thought exercise. Have you read anything about racists that wasn't biased against them or aimed at disparaging them? Do you agree with any racist viewpoints?

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/1/9/the-zionist-fallacy-of-jewis...

You asked me not far upthread if I support the existence of the State of Israel. I figured you were just ignoring my responses again.

To repeat, no. I don't support that state so long as it is built on a racist foundation. Doesn't mean I think it is going anywhere. But I will not consider it valid.

I have no doubt you are going to continue playing this game, but there are plenty of people, including Jewish people and Israelis, who see right through it.

If you oppose the existence of the State of Israel you oppose peace. Like everyone else, Israelis can’t negotiate away their very existence. Wanting to eradicate Zionism is genocidal.

JKR wrote:

If you oppose the existence of the State of Israel you oppose peace. Like everyone else, Israelis can’t negotiate away their very existence. Wanting to eradicate Zionism is genocidal.

So long as that state is built on a racist foundation there will never be peace.

I have no doubt they will continue to survive, and they might even be able to settle on a border (as Hamas has offered to agree to). But it will never be peace.

I know you are trying to cling to that racist model as if it is the only option, but don't you know your history? Germany still exists. South Africa still exists. Not to the same degree of racism they used to be built on.

oldgoat wrote:

Huh?
Um... no. Anyone who knows me and who matters knows I'm not antisemetic. As I said in a thread I started some time ago this is not being moderated by standards established around here over time on babble. I've said how I feel about that and why. I do take into account that the minority position, no matter what I think of it, is being advanced by a minority of two. It doesn't feel right to cut that in half, but I guess I could if I felt I had to.

One thing about the minority opinion of just 2 here is that it is not such a rare opinion in Canada and worldwide. The tiny 2’s” position here is not that different than the position of the government of Canada and the opposition parties also. In many ways the position of the “tiny 2” is more moderate than the position taken by most Canadian politicians. The “tiny 2’s” position is also very mainstream in other parts of the world. The ones negotiating for Israel and Palestinians are Israeli Zionists and Palestinians who take devergent positions. If the “tiny 2” is eliminated from discussions here the discussion here will become totally removed from the discussions required to establish peace. Including just one side of this conflict in discussion here would produce a very irrelevant discussion in regard to reaching some sort of common ground.

oldgoat wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

no one wants to be acccused of being anti semetic is my quess. it draws a lot of heat. 

The only reason JKR isn't being kicked off the forum is because he's Jewish and Oldgoat is afraid to boot him and come across as antisemetic?

Huh?
Um... no. Anyone who knows me and who matters knows I'm not antisemetic. As I said in a thread I started some time ago this is not being moderated by standards established around here over time on babble. I've said how I feel about that and why. I do take into account that the minority position, no matter what I think of it, is being advanced by a minority of two. It doesn't feel right to cut that in half, but I guess I could if I felt I had to.

I applaud you for not allowing the discussion to become a silo.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

That's quite the thought exercise. Have you read anything about racists that wasn't biased against them or aimed at disparaging them? Do you agree with any racist viewpoints?

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/1/9/the-zionist-fallacy-of-jewis...

You asked me not far upthread if I support the existence of the State of Israel. I figured you were just ignoring my responses again.

To repeat, no. I don't support that state so long as it is built on a racist foundation. Doesn't mean I think it is going anywhere. But I will not consider it valid.

I have no doubt you are going to continue playing this game, but there are plenty of people, including Jewish people and Israelis, who see right through it.

[/quote]

The majority of Israelis support Zionism, The majority of Jews support Israel and Zionism. Equating Zionism with racism dehumanizes Zionists. Equating Zionism with Nazism dehumanizes Zionists. Once you equate a group with Nazis and Nazism, committing violence against them becomes much more likely and reasonable.

6079_Smith_W wrote;

I used to know a few old people from back then, including someone who was a card-carrying Nazi. From some (not all, and usually not that loudly) I heard the same excuses - that it was self-defense and they were the victims. That France and the other powers forced them into it because of Versailles.

They were really bitter about that legacy and what they saw as unfairness and really believed it to the point that they were able to look away and ignore that their country butchered half a continent, including many of their own people.

So yeah, I have heard some things about Nazis that wasn't biased against them. Do I agree with any of their viewpoints? That Versailles was not fair and caused famine in Germany - yes.

So what? Do you think that gives them a pass for what they did?

And the difference in scale of the atrocity notwithstanding, why do you think past suffering should give racists free rein here?

Have we not offered enough examples from Jewish and Israeli people who reject that as nonsense?

End of quote.

————
————

The majority of Israeli people support Zionism. The majority of Jewish people support Israel and Zionism. Equating Zionism with Nazism dehumanizes Zionists. Once you equate a group of people with being Nazis, committing violence against them becomes much more likely and reasonable.

Equating Israelis and Zionists with being Nazis is antisemitic.

Um... no. Anyone who knows me and who matters knows I'm not antisemetic. As I said in a thread I started some time ago this is not being moderated by standards established around here over time on babble. I've said how I feel about that and why. I do take into account that the minority position, no matter what I think of it, is being advanced by a minority of two. It doesn't feel right to cut that in half, but I guess I could if I felt I had to.

..txs for asking.

..my view of hamas has been shifting since oct 7. i came into the conversation disagreeing with their methods. i didn't like the killings on that day by hamas. to random. i still don't like it but my view of hamas is changing. i believe it is/was the vehicle, amongst others, that palestinians are using to defend themselves. fight back. for sure there is no full control over this entity but desperate people will choose whatever they have in such a brutal desperate situation. building up over many years many years. a lot of control over hamas is not external. and what is said globally is that palestinians understand politics.

..so i'm learning something. just like i learned a lot of other stuff since oct 7. it's difficult for me to argue that that learning would have happened if jkr and paladin weren't doing what they are doing. there was a motivation. 

..it's a limited motivation though. i would prefer to collectively understand the palestinian struggle better. not go over the same old stuff as if this was still oct the 8th. i'd like to collectively explore the global movement supporting palestinians than be faced with a question that you've responded to several times. it's like being stuck in a loop.  

..the limited motivation brings with it anger. how much easier it is for me to insult someone on this board now. and i don't want this spilling over into my off board life. i have a delicate balance to maintain with not so political people.

..so i'd prefer these palestinian israeli threads to be treated like other threads. not a special case. with respect to indigenous folk and racism.  i am a collective person though and i won't run away if the collective thinks other wise.     

JKR wrote:

The majority of Israelis support Zionism, The majority of Jews support Israel and Zionism. Equating Zionism with racism dehumanizes Zionists. Equating Zionism with Nazism dehumanizes Zionists. Once you equate a group with Nazis and Nazism, committing violence against them becomes much more likely and reasonable.

Do you support Apartheid South Africa because the majority of whites there were fine with it?
Do you support Confederate slavery because the majority there were fine with it?

And yes. Do you support Nazi Germany because the majority there were fine with it?

Your thought exercise was ignorant and really really insulting. You are the one asking people here to empathize with racism and hatred, because Zionism is by definition racist.

Did you not read the list of Israeli laws and parts of its constitution which are explicitly racist? Did you not read the article I just posted (written by a person who is Israeli and Jewish) pointing out that at its heart Zionism is white supremacy?

And yes I figured you would jump all over my true story about how some Germans excuse the crimes of their country. But since you all falling over yourself making up fake grievances, it hardly matters.

No, I didn't draw an exact parallel between Nazi atrocities and Israeli atrocities. As I said, there is quite the difference of scale. But what the two have in common is grievances they use to excuse those atrocities.

If you think I am racist for making that valid point then you are also accusing countless Jewish people like Jonathan Glazer who have made exactly the same point.

But like your spin on the protest against that illegal land sale, and the outright lies you tell I reject your calls of racism as utterly dishonest.

And it is kind of funny, given the conversation you just had with Oldgoat and Paladin, that you turn right around and try to negate the significant opposition to Zionism in the Jewish community by playing a numbers game.

It can't be racist because most support it? I know there are lots of Canadians who think the same about our legacy of racism, genocide and land theft. That isn't how it works.

At least here we have a Supreme Court ruling recognizing that the Indigenous people still have title. No the land doesn't "belong to everyone who lives on it". Not here, and not there.
Thieves never become owners.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Do you support Apartheid South Africa because the majority of whites there were fine with it?

Do you support Confederate slavery because the majority there were fine with it?

And yes. Do you support Nazi Germany because the majority there were fine with it?

Your thought exercise was ignorant and really really insulting. You are the one asking people here to empathize with racism and hatred, because Zionism is by definition racist.

Did you not read the list of Israeli laws and parts of its constitution which are explicitly racist? Did you not read the article I just posted (written by a person who is Israeli and Jewish) pointing out that at its heart Zionism is white supremacy?

And yes I figured you would jump all over my true story about how some Germans excuse the crimes of their country. But since you all falling over yourself making up fake grievances, it hardly matters.

No, I didn't draw an exact parallel between Nazi atrocities and Israeli atrocities. As I said, there is quite the difference of scale. But what the two have in common is grievances they use to excuse those atrocities.

If you think I am racist for making that valid point then you are also accusing countless Jewish people like Jonathan Glazer who have made exactly the same point.

But like your spin on the protest against that illegal land sale, and the outright lies you tell I reject your calls of racism as utterly dishonest.

And it is kind of funny, given the conversation you just had with Oldgoat and Paladin, that you turn right around and try to negate the significant opposition to Zionism in the Jewish community by playing a numbers game.

It can't be racist because most support it? I know there are lots of Canadians who think the same about our legacy of racism, genocide and land theft. That isn't how it works.

At least here we have a Supreme Court ruling recognizing that the Indigenous people still have title. No the land doesn't "belong to everyone who lives on it". Not here, and not there.
Thieves never become owners.

End of quote.

————
————

Equating Zionism with German Nazism, Confederate slavery, South African Apartheid, racism, and thievery is incorrect and antisemitic.

Here are some definitions of Zionism:

Zionism

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/zionism

Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel. The vast majority of Jews around the world feel a connection or kinship with Israel, whether or not they explicitly identify as Zionists, and regardless of their opinions on the policies of the Israeli government.

While there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the land of Israel over the millennia, the yearning to return to Zion, the biblical term for both the land of Israel and Jerusalem, has been a cornerstone of Jewish communal life since the Romans violently colonized the land, sending Jews into exile two thousand years ago. An earlier exile by the Babylonians produced perhaps the most well-known lamentation “By the rivers of Babylon, there we wept as we remembered Zion.” That connection between Jews and the land, and the hope for repatriation, is deeply embedded in Jewish prayer, ritual, literature and culture.

What is known as modern Zionism emerged in the mid-19th century in tandem with the rise of the nation-state and widespread national liberation movements across Europe. In the case of the Jews, it was also in response to a long history of intense anti-Jewish hatred, persecution, and discrimination in countries and societies across the world where Jews lived, including in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. Its advocates believed that a modern Jewish state would provide Jews with a safe haven from the bigotry and endangerment they suffered perennially as a minority culture among non-Jewish majority cultures, and ensure that Jews have the same right to nationhood and self-determination as any other people, along with the same protections that are typically afforded to other nations. Zionism was also a cultural and national renaissance movement which sought to enable the Jewish people to revive their language, Hebrew, and reestablish self-determination over their traditions, culture, religion and education.

In the late 1800s, the “father” of modern Zionism, Austrian journalist Theodor Herzl, consolidated various strands of Zionist thought into an organized political movement, advocating for international recognition of an independent and sovereign Jewish state in the land of Israel.

Today, with a Jewish sovereign state a reality, Zionists believe in and support the right of the democratic State of Israel to exist as a Jewish homeland. Israel is the only Jewish state in the world. Being a Zionist is distinct from supporting the policies of the government of Israel.

Zionism is a big tent movement that includes those across the spectrum from progressives, moderates and conservatives and those who are apolitical. There are Zionists who are critical of Israeli policies, just as there are Zionists who rarely voice disagreement with the Israeli government. There are diverse views among Zionists about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, about how to promote peace, whether to support a two-state solution, and about approaches to Israeli settlements. Being critical of Israeli policies is no more anti-Zionist than being critical of American policies is anti-American.

Zionism does not preclude support for Palestinian self-determination and statehood. For some Zionists, support for a two-state solution is the realization of self-determination for Jews and Palestinians alike.

There are also millions of non-Jews who consider themselves Zionists and supporters of the Jewish state, who are motivated by factors including religion, history, security or politics.

————

Zionism Oxford Dictionary

https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803133...

a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.

————

Zionist

https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/Zionist

a supporter of Zionism; a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in its historic homeland of Israel.

Zionism is a movement and ideology to reestablish and support the existence of a Jewish state in the Biblical Land of Israel. A Zionist is someone who supports Jews’ right to self-determination in their historic homeland and Israel’s right to exist. However, antisemites often use “Zionist” or “Zio” as shorthand for “Jew,” while many antisemites attempt to cloak their hate by claiming to be merely “anti-Zionists”. Notably, anti-Zionism — the belief that the Jewish people do not have the right to a national home in their ancestral homeland (e.g. that the State of Israel should not exist) — is itself widely believed by Jews and non-Jewish allies to be a form of antisemitism.

————

I’ve said the primary obstacle to peace are groups like Hamas and their leadership. I’ve said Palestinians support peace. I’ve often said Palestinian people and Palestinian leaders came close to establishing a permanent peace with Israelis in the 1990’s and 2000’s.

By this logic the ANC was the primary obstacle to peace in South America not the AWB or the governing Nationalist Party, who only wanted to live in peace under their system and not have potentially armed minorities demanding equality.

I guess as well the reason there was no peace in Northern Ireland was because of the Provisional IRA not the British or the Ulster militias. Only the minority Catholics were to blame since they opposed the system that the British and its Orange supporters wanted to live under in peace and harmony.

The Israeli government and the armed settlers are just as culpable for the ongoing conflicts between that racist state and the minority fighting back. Like SA and NI they fight for a system that would allow them to be equals not second class citizens based on race or religion.

Zionism is an ethno nationalist movement that by definition is Jewish supremacist. Just because I think Nazi should have been beaten for being racist does not mean I think that Germany should not exist. I cheered when the racist state of South Africa lost the National Party and its white supremacist ideology. But that didn't mean I wanted the country to cease to exist.

The state of Israel has every right to exist but not as an apartheid state with Zionist Jewish supremacy as its national ethos.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I’ve said the primary obstacle to peace are groups like Hamas and their leadership. I’ve said Palestinians support peace. I’ve often said Palestinian people and Palestinian leaders came close to establishing a permanent peace with Israelis in the 1990’s and 2000’s.

By this logic the ANC was the primary obstacle to peace in South America not the AWB or the governing Nationalist Party, who only wanted to live in peace under their system and not have potentially armed minorities demanding equality.

I guess as well the reason there was no peace in Northern Ireland was because of the Provisional IRA not the British or the Ulster militias. Only the minority Catholics were to blame since they opposed the system that the British and its Orange supporters wanted to live under in peace and harmony.

The Israeli government and the armed settlers are just as culpable for the ongoing conflicts between that racist state and the minority fighting back. Like SA and NI they fight for a system that would allow them to be equals not second class citizens based on race or religion.

Many Zionists support living in peace and equality side by side with Palestinians. Many Zionists support a two state solution. Many Zionists support having a secular based Israel with equal civil rights for all its citizens. Zionism doesn’t equal Nazism or racism. That erroneous belief completely opposes establishing peace. Peace can’t be established when one side thinks and says the other side are evil monsters who will have to be militarily opposed until they stop being evil monsters or are killed.

JKR wrote:

Many Zionists support living in peace and equality side by side with Palestinians. Many Zionists support a two state solution.

You know, JKR, I think that is a bit of a bait and switch.

I have posted quite a few critical pieces here by Jews and by Israelis (I have tried to focus on that, as a matter of fact). I don't think any of them has identified themselves as Zionist.

You want to come up with an article or video of someone declaring themselves Zionist, and saying they want to get rid of Israel's racist constitutional clauses and laws, then we can talk.

Short of that, I don't see that you have a valid point.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Zionism is an ethno nationalist movement that by definition is Jewish supremacist. Just because I think Nazi should have been beaten for being racist does not mean I think that Germany should not exist. I cheered when the racist state of South Africa lost the National Party and its white supremacist ideology. But that didn't mean I wanted the country to cease to exist.

The state of Israel has every right to exist but not as an apartheid state with Zionist Jewish supremacy as its national ethos.

Most variants of Zionism is not Jewish supremist. Most Zionists are not Jewish supremisists although a crazy fringe is. The only special right for Jews that Zionism requires is the Jewish right to a safe haven in Israel. That’s because Zionism was established to provide Jews a safe haven. Unfortunately history over the last 3,000 years shows again and again why Jews need a safe haven. Having a safe haven in their homeland established over 3,000 years ago isn’t Nazism or racism. Israel is a country that adheres to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights while still providing a safe haven for Jews. Israel makes mistakes like every other country does. I agree it should be more secular. Unfortunately many countries favour one religion. Israel is by far not the only one. I also agree that Israel should be able to provide safe haven to the Jews of the world who have faced persecution throughout the world and throughout history.

John Clarke

The dissident Israeli journalist Gideon Levy tells of an experience he had at a checkpoint in the West Bank. An ambulance with its lights flashing, transporting an elderly Palestinian man, pulled up and the soldiers made no effort to assist it its passage.

The driver explained to Levy that it was standard to make him wait for an hour at this checkpoint. Levy’s appeals to the soldiers to respond to a medical emergency were met impassively but the soldiers became enraged when he suggested that the old man in the ambulance could be one of their fathers. To make such a comparison was deeply offensive as far as they were concerned.

Once again, no colonial project has ever unfolded that didn’t deny the humanity of the dispossessed......