Sex as labour

191 posts / 0 new

Mon, 2022-11-14 12:39

lagatta4

I am an abolitionist feminist and remain so. Not for reasons of "morality" which borders on relgious nuttery, a force lethal to women, not only in Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia, but also among our neighbours to the south. Simply for reasons of gross exploitation and severe violence, including murders.

I don't often post on feminist current, simply because of my diagreement with Ms Murphy, who views "The Left" as inherently misogynist. Of course I also have disagreements with Pondering, but they are on far more specific subjects: thinking our tame Left is "too radical", and of course, the national question, neither of which have anyting to do with the subject at hand

Mon, 2022-11-14 17:22

#103

susan davis susan davis's picture

so, under defacto decriminalization in Vancouver - there were no murders of sex workers as a result of their work for 12 years.....? what does that say about criminalization? erosion of that policy caused by pressure from abolitionists has lead to the murder of at least one sex worker recently.... how do you square that with you idea that abolition will end violence against sex workers?

Mon, 2022-11-14 18:13

(Reply to #103) #104

Paladin1

susan davis wrote:

so, under defacto decriminalization in Vancouver - there were no murders of sex workers as a result of their work for 12 years.....?

Do you have a source for this Susan? Given the state Vancouver is in that's surprising to read.

Tue, 2022-11-15 20:15

(Reply to #104) #105

Pondering

lagatta4 wrote:
I don't often post on feminist current, simply because of my diagreement with Ms Murphy, who views "The Left" as inherently misogynist. Of course I also have disagreements with Pondering, but they are on far more specific subjects: thinking our tame Left is "too radical", and of course, the national question, neither of which have anyting to do with the subject at hand

I don't think our left is too radical so much as I think it ignores the 99% at cost of concrete advancement. I do appreciate your setting aside our differences on other topics.

I didn't know that Meghan Murphy thought that. I don't share her opinion. Incels are misogynistic. I wouldn't even call Conservatives necessarily misogynistic.

Sexism is another matter. Like racism it is pervasive. Like racism, it can be internalized. Unlike racism sexism runs in both directions. Sexism definitely harms men too.

However when it comes to the sex industry I don't see many men on the left able to apply leftist thinking to the issue. They become dedicated libertarians. They just can't see beyond sexy ladies wanna do it hubba hubba, even if they don't partake personally.

There is no interest whatsoever in labour conditions or power dynamics or the impact on women as a class. It's not that they aren't taking the "right" side. It's that they are more interested in geo-politics. It's a woman's issue.

Tue, 2022-11-15 20:46

#106

Pondering

Prostitutes in Canada are still getting murdered. Also, not getting murdered is a pretty low bar for working conditions.

The Pickton murders would not have been prevented by decriminalization. The women went to his home to party and do drugs. They spent hours at his farm even with other people present. They had no idea what was to happen.

https://vancouversun.com/news/am-i-next-serial-killer-victim-wrote-befor...

"Am I next?" de Vries wrote in 1995, three years before she disappeared....

"Is he watching me now? Stalking me like a predator and its prey. Waiting, waiting for some perfect spot, time or my stupid mistake. How does one choose a victim? Good question. If I knew that, I would never get snuffed."...

"I don't know who and I don't know why. I feel it, I fear it, it's in the air. It's so just ... well, just there. It makes my flesh tingle from goose bumps and sends my heart through a flash of panic."

Sarah wrote that she felt "cold, emotionless, empty, yet too tough to show that you're cracking inside and starting to cry.

"Deep, deeper and deeper still, way down in the abyss o my heart a spark shows through all the empty, cold darkness."...

Maggie de Vries told the inquiry that her sister's writing shows that even though Sarah presented a hard exterior to the world, "inside that shell there is a person in pain."

Sarah took precautions to stay alive, de Vries said, but despite her fears she was killed — likely because she "may have encountered a rapid use of force."

Too tough to show she was cracking inside, too vulnerable to survive. The world lost someone special. Decriminalization would not have prevented her from going to Pickton's farm. A few extra minutes leaning into a car does not tell you a killer is staring in your eyes.

Tue, 2022-11-15 22:08

(Reply to #106) #107

susan davis susan davis's picture

Paladin1 wrote:
susan davis wrote:

so, under defacto decriminalization in Vancouver - there were no murders of sex workers as a result of their work for 12 years.....?

Do you have a source for this Susan? Given the state Vancouver is in that's surprising to read.

yeah... the vancouver police... who i work with all the time... and who publish crime stats all the time....

Tue, 2022-11-15 22:16

(Reply to #107) #108

susan davis susan davis's picture

Pondering wrote:

Prostitutes in Canada are still getting murdered. Also, not getting murdered is a pretty low bar for working conditions.

Decriminalization would not have prevented her from going to Pickton's farm. A few extra minutes leaning into a car does not tell you a killer is staring in your eyes.

says who....? you? it is clear that the police attitudes due to criminalization and viewing sex workers as "criminals" had a massive impact - thus the reason the laws are not enforced here.... 10 million dollar public inquiry.....as well as attitudes of social workers, health care workers and all the other "so called safety nets" which are supposed to protect us....why?
because we're criminals and get what we deserve....
maybe read the Forsaken report before trying to claim decriminalization wouldn't have saved them all.....
why were they on the street? because criminalization closed the brothels and put them out there in harms way....
i hate this loop of manipulation of facts....
abolitionists worked to close brothels and kick sex workers out of strip clubs.... abolitionists worked to block sex workers from even renting hourly rooms to be safer leaving them no where to work indoors and safely....
abolitionists forced sex workers onto the street and into the hands of predators over the course of decades of discrimination, exclusion, denial of agency and hatred.....delivered into the hands of murderers....
why? because of criminalization

Tue, 2022-11-15 22:24

#109

susan davis susan davis's picture

and as far as it being a "low bar" - as a survivor of that animal who peole who really understand the situation would never name..... i'll take it..... no murder is a step in the right direction - away from antiquated abolitonists reasoning....

how many of your friends are dead because of this? many of my friends have died.... but you keep beating that uptopian drum until all the worlds problems are solved by abolishing sex work....

Tue, 2022-11-15 23:36

#110

Pondering

The victims spent hours with Pickton. Insufficient time to evaluate him was not the issue. We like to think we can somehow sense who the threats are but the reason they are successful is that we can't.

"Am I next?" de Vries wrote in 1995, three years before she disappeared....

As the application judge found, street prostitutes, with some exceptions, are a particularly marginalized population (paras. 458 and 472). Whether because of financial desperation, drug addictions, mental illness, or compulsion from pimps, they often have little choice but to sell their bodies for money. Realistically, while they may retain some minimal power of choice — what the Attorney General of Canada called “constrained choice” (transcript, at p. 22) — these are not people who can be said to be truly “choosing” a risky line of business (see PHS, at paras. 97-101).

These are not people who would otherwise be working in strip clubs or brothels. I think your logic is oversimplified.

It will take a long time to get around to every aspect of the vast topic of sex work. I find I am not entirely finished with the topic of who the service workers are that inhabit the street.

After that, strip clubs, but the board is taking too much time so I am not prepared to go there yet.

Tue, 2022-11-15 23:38

#111

Pondering

Also, sex workers are not criminals in Canada. Sellers are completely decriminalized. People cannot be arrested for selling their own sexual services.

Wed, 2022-11-16 00:59

#112

susan davis susan davis's picture

round and round... sex work is decriminalized, sex work is illegal.... which is it? prostitute? survivor? sex worker?

Wed, 2022-11-16 12:11

#113

kropotkin1951

However when it comes to the sex industry I don't see many men on the left able to apply leftist thinking to the issue.

I would argue that the leftist men I know don't consume a lot sexual products especially prostitutes. The fact that you don't see many men on the left able to apply leftist thinking to the issue is probably confirmation of that fact.

Leftist thought on sex as labour would require looking at it from a class analysis perspective. If it is the exploitation of vulnerable people that is the concern then programs to make people less vulnerable is the leftist answer not the criminal justice system. Left wing thinking by definition is trying to change the status quo around economic issues to empower people to make uncoerced choices.

Wed, 2022-11-16 14:27

#114

Pondering

That is a really interesting way to put it Kropotkin. I have been putting together my thoughts on patriarchy and feminism for a post which is vaguely going in the same direction. I don't know if you will see a connection or not. I'm not even sure it is there. I will have to put more thought into it.

Wed, 2022-11-16 14:38

#115

contrarianna

Abolitionist authoritarians have the moralistic and ideological desire to criminalize monetary sexual transactions (many marriages excluded) while maintaining the absurd fiction that that they are not against sex sellers, only buyers.

They maintain this ludicrous fiction by denying agency to the vast number of people who choose sex work and by infantalizing them all as victims who can't make choices and thus their livlihood must be criminalized.

The ideologues do not care that by making sex transactions illegal and pushing them into the shadows they are making them more dangerous, a fact acknowledged by most sex workers.

It's hard to know how many of the authoritarians secretly know the dangeous reality they are and how many are simply in denial since it doesn't reinforce their ideology:

Sex Workers, Organizations and Individuals Advocating for Sex Workers’ Rights and Community Well-Being
Sex Work and Changes to the Criminal Code after Bill C-36: What Does the Evidence Say?

....
Background

Research in Sweden has demonstrated that criminalizing the
purchase of sexual services does not eliminate prostitution,7
but rather pushes the sex industry underground, resulting in
extremely dangerous working conditions for sex workers. In
Sweden, sex workers report less access to social services, reduced
ability to demand condom use, diculty securing and retaining
housing, increased stigma, and more adversarial relationships with
police.8 In Norway, researchers have found that violence against sex
workers increased following the enactment of a similar law.9
In Vancouver, where police policy has targeted clients since
2013, research has similarly found that sex workers on the street
experience violence and health-related harms related to their
inability to screen prospective clients or negotiate the terms of
transactions, displacement to isolated spaces, and barriers to
accessing police protection. Sex workers also reported spending
more time on the street to find clients, making them more likely
to take chances with questionable clients.10
The new law also impacts indoor workers, many of whom screen
their clients by collecting and verifying personal information.
The law makes clients’ more unwilling to provide accurate
personal information for fear of identification and arrest....

....
What does the evidence demonstrate about the
effects of prohibiting the purchase of sex?

• Sex workers have decreased ability to screen clients and
therefore increased risk of violence.
• Fear of exposure, surveillance, and investigation limit
access to police protections.
• Street-based sex workers experience increased isolation
and dangerous working conditions.
• Sex workers are less able to establish safe indoor spaces
to do sex work.
• Clients and sex workers are less willing to contact
police about bad working conditions, exploitation or
tracking.

What does the evidence demonstrate about the
effects of prohibiting materially benefiting?

• Sex workers have decreased ability to access the
services of third parties that could increase their safety
and security.
• Sex workers’ personal and professional relationships are
criminalized if they cannot be proved to be “legitimate
living arrangements.”
• Sex workers are unable to benefit from health and safety
regulations, labour laws and human rights protection.
• Sex workers experience increased social and
professional isolation.
• Sex workers’ options regarding where and how they
engage in sex work are restricted even though research
has established that working indoor is safer than
working on the street.
• Sex workers who are migrants rely on third parties, and
they often get caught up in detention and deportation
sweeps when there are anti-tracking raids—a huge
incentive not to report exploitative working conditions.
....

https://sexworklawreform.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Laws-General.pdf

https://sexworklawreform.com/about-us/member-groups/

Wed, 2022-11-16 15:46

#116

Pondering

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I don't buy that there is some massive barrier to women who want to sell their sexual services.

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Wed, 2022-11-16 17:19

(Reply to #116) #117

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Leftist thought on sex as labour would require looking at it from a class analysis perspective. If it is the exploitation of vulnerable people that is the concern then programs to make people less vulnerable is the leftist answer not the criminal justice system. Left wing thinking by definition is trying to change the status quo around economic issues to empower people to make uncoerced choices.

The vulnerable people getting exploited aren't criminalized but the exploiters are criminalized if the exploitation mounts to that level of seriousness. Factories that could collapse are shut down and if need be owners arrested if they willfully endangered employees. Nobody says "well the employees are desperate so we'll just have to let it go."

Wed, 2022-11-16 19:11

(Reply to #117) #118

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

However when it comes to the sex industry I don't see many men on the left able to apply leftist thinking to the issue.

I would argue that the leftist men I know don't consume a lot sexual products especially prostitutes. The fact that you don't see many men on the left able to apply leftist thinking to the issue is probably confirmation of that fact.

That's kind of my point. I don't have to be a farm worker to put time into really thinking about their situation and how to approach from a leftist perspective. You see it as a woman's issue. Sex workers sound right so that's the direction you take.

Traditional feminists, the ones that see porn as harmful to women, have been rejected by the left and painted as anti-sex or religious nut-jobs.

Wed, 2022-11-16 19:35

#119

JKR

Even though many people agree that some things are not good for people they also feel that abolition / prohibition isn't the way to go. Being opposed to abolition / prohibition doesn’t mean that someone supports what some people are saying should be abolished or prohibited.

Wed, 2022-11-16 21:14

#120

Pondering

And that is a very reasonable position to hold. What is not reasonable is to treat everyone who doesn't agree as if they are religious fanatics or man-haters.

Abolition is a philosophical position. No one believes prostitution as a whole is on the verge of extinction. It is not obvious that full decriminalization from A to Z would benefit sex workers or society. Just because it is what the loudest want doesn't mean it is the best choice for all concerned. Maybe it is. I'm not claiming that is impossible. But at the very least I see no justification for allowing street postitution.

You saw the platforms for in/out calls. Get a cell phone and you are in business. There is a lot of web cam stuff going on too. Massage parlours and strip clubs are also outlets. As the courts described the women on the street are the most marginalized with few exceptions.

If "man" is a gender then no there are no men working the streets. The men are in the cars driving around. There are trans women on the street. There are young men just aged out of the system gay or not. Damaged boys, drug addicts, alcoholics. Sometimes people aren't in a position to refuse abuse. We don't sanction it until we have something else to offer.

As per Susan Vancouver police have a good working relationship with sex workers on the DTES. I'm not totally against that. I don't think it should be tolerated in general but specific places could need a more tailored approach. DTES sounds like a pretty unique place. I won't second guess her on what is best for that particular neighbourhood.

Wed, 2022-11-16 22:47

#121

JKR

I think an important question to ask is "when is it appropriate to crimanilize something and when is it not?"

One obvious problem with criminalization is that it can mitigate against and also prevent harm reduction. Another problem is that it brings people who are willing to break the law and use violence into the industries that have been criminalized. Aggressive law enforcement is also part and parcel of crimanilizing an endeavour. Criminalization is a good example of how the road to hell can be paved with good intentions. Here in BC very many people feel the criminalization of using illicit drugs has been a complete disaster. Very many people here in BC feel that during the last half decade tens of thousands of people here have died because harm reduction hasn't been prioritized above dealing with substance abuse as a criminal and legal issue. Most people here now believe substance users should be able to get a safe supply of drugs from the government. In this vain could "prostitution" be dealt with as a health issue and a social issue instead of a criminal issue that produces many unintended consequences?

Thu, 2022-11-17 01:20

#122

susan davis susan davis's picture

For clarity, the "lowest level of enforcement policy" applies across the entire province - not just the DTES - all 45 police services and the e-division of the RCMP all signed on.... it also appears from the hearings on PCEPA that the Canadian Police Chiefs Association may be gearing up to do the same.... the point being - their focus is exploitation - laws against exploitation are not strong enough so sex work laws are used.... in appropriate for victims of crimes like rape, unlawful confinement, child sexual interferrence.... the laws against human trafficking, exploitation etc should be beefed up... not sex work criminalized...

Thu, 2022-11-17 01:31

#123

susan davis susan davis's picture

RE: get a cell phone and you are in business....

IF ... and that's a big if... those sites you link to and quote - which the use protection portion is really awful ....not sure why you would post that... -

IF.... those sites have any clients looking at them...

As you are not a member of our community i guess i understand why you don't understand why it's not "easy" to become a sex work...

When they removed BACKPAGE... where clients knew to find us, where we could runs ads and meet customers.... 60 new ad sites emerged.... the clients were scattered all over the place and none of the sites worked to make any money... an issue we are still dealing with now...

all thanks to the anti sex work crusaders...

people use other platforms now which i am reluctant to share with you.... and use the "ads" as a unofficial web site for use in promotion of their services...

please stop making assumptions about the way we live, the way we work, who we are...

you don't now about us, you have no idea what a diverse and vibrant community we are... and that's sad.... but hey .. keep telling us how "easy" it is to be criminalized

Fri, 2022-11-18 10:07

#124

Pondering

As you are not a member of our community i guess i understand why you don't understand why it's not "easy" to become a sex work...

I don't want it to be easy to become a sex worker. I don't want it to be a choice a woman makes in a moment or a week of desperation. It should take a bit of thought and effort to get into the business. The hurdles do not seem insurmountable for the average woman.

I am totally willing to accept that some women choose prostitution as their preferred employment and don't feel the least be damaged by it in terms of performing the job. Having said that from the accounts of survivors there are many women who believe it is inherently damaging and cannot be made safe. I think it depends on the amount of control the woman has over the situation coupled with character traits. It takes a woman who isn't easily intimidated by an aggressive male stranger even when naked and alone.

people use other platforms now which i am reluctant to share with you.... and use the "ads" as a unofficial web site for use in promotion of their services...

I don’t need to see the site. It’s as I expected. Sex workers found a way around the law with relative ease. I assumed that some sex workers would use escort services to pick up clients and try to turn some of them into regulars. From what you say they also created their own sites to screen clients. If that is the case I am all for it.

I was not kidding when I referred to worker owned co-ops. I think it would be great if the website below were illegal if owned by anyone other than sex workers.

You ask why I posted this:

ou're going to be in good hands when you choose to hire your escort using CanadaEscortsHub.com, that much we can promise you. Your personal information is never going to be at risk either, as we use a very secure server to ensure our users are never going to be “outed”. Privacy is very important when it comes to hiring an escort, as you don't want people figuring out what you're up to (in most cases, at least).

We would always recommend using protection when interacting with an escort, as you should be doing that regardless. Having unprotected sex with a professional sex worker isn't the most ideal thing to do, and while it might feel better, you're going to be putting yourself at risk – we only work with professional and clean call girls, but that doesn't mean we're 100% certain! Besides that, most of the women you hire aren't going to agree with unprotected sex anyway (thankfully). Some of them may offer additional services if you're willing to pay a bit more money, and in some cases, this can help you achieve your ultimate fantasy.

Regular industries focus on the client not the service provider. Uber doesn't care about the drivers. Amazon doesn't care about their employees. The customer is the focus. A decriminalized prostitution industry would be no different.

In this case reassuring potential customers that their privacy will be protected is the priority. The section on condom use is particularly egregious. It makes it appear as though using protection is optional although *most* women will insist.

The rest of the ad focuses on justifying prostitution for married men and others presenting it as a need.

Fri, 2022-11-18 18:37

#125

susan davis susan davis's picture

"i don't want" - why is it about you?

You just demostrate all the reasons I have been citing all through these multiple threads...

"some" sex workers - inferring it's the few - it's not - it's the majority

"easy" - does not capture the r4ality of the impacts of the law

"character traits" - references to our "character" really are irrelevant and give a nod to us being lower of a sub class.... gross

and lastly, this site is NOT a well known or used site... so don't go inferring it represents the norm....

Business do care about their workers in all fields... you don't seem to grasp that as workers, we deserve to be able to collectively bargain and fight issues with in our industry.... like all other workers....

after all sex work is work

Fri, 2022-11-18 22:00

#126

Pondering

It isn't about me beyond my right to have an opinion as a Canadian who gets to vote. You are continuously trying to draw a fence around who gets to have an opinion. It turns out anyone who agrees with you.

In character traits I mentioned confidence and strength. You translate that into "sub-class" to play the noble victim.

Fri, 2022-11-18 22:47

#127

Pondering

JKR wrote:
Another problem is that it brings people who are willing to break the law and use violence into the industries that have been criminalized. Aggressive law enforcement is also part and parcel of crimanilizing an endeavour. ……Most people here now believe substance users should be able to get a safe supply of drugs from the government. In this vain could "prostitution" be dealt with as a health issue and a social issue instead of a criminal issue that produces many unintended consequences?

Drug use should be entirely decriminalized. Safe injection sites should be transformed into methadone clinics. Drug dealers cruising the streets for vulnerable victims should have the book thrown at them.

Employers of the vulnerable cruise right along providing income for the drug dealers. The vulnerable are caught in between, the conduit for the cash from abuser to abuser.

Bedford decision: As the application judge found, street prostitutes, with some exceptions, are a particularly marginalized population (paras. 458 and 472). Whether because of financial desperation, drug addictions, mental illness, or compulsion from pimps, they often have little choice but to sell their bodies for money. Realistically, while they may retain some minimal power of choice — what the Attorney General of Canada called “constrained choice” (transcript, at p. 22) — these are not people who can be said to be truly “choosing” a risky line of business (see PHS, at paras. 97-101).

Be they using drugs or selling sexual services out of desperation they shouldn’t be criminalized. The exploiters should be criminalized.

Drug use is a health issue. Street prostitution is not a health issue. Street prostitution is employers cruising for vulnerable workers who are willing to endanger themselves and willing to work under abusive conditions.

Fri, 2022-11-18 23:53

(Reply to #127) #128

JKR

Pondering wrote:

Street prostitution is not a health issue. Street prostitution is employers cruising for vulnerable workers who are willing to endanger themselves and willing to work under abusive conditions.

Many people disagree with your personal opinion regarding sex work and the sex trade. Many people don’t view sex work pejoratively like you do. Why should your personal opinions dictate the lives of others and criminalize others?

Fri, 2022-11-18 23:56

#129

JKR

Why not just decriminalize the buying and selling of both sex and drugs? Our social service systems and health care systems could deal with the negative aspects caused by the drug trade and sex trade as they already do with other social and health issues. I think Harper established C-36 primarily to get electoral support from Christian social conservatives who oppose the sex trade workers and the sex trade for religious reasons. These people want to dictate their evangelical Christian beliefs to all Canadians. I think C-36 was just a partisan political manoeuvre to help shore up Conservative political support and it will be overturned by the courts. Hopefully the Liberals will still be in power when C-36 is overturned and they will establish much better legislation. I think it would make sense to entirely decriminalize the drug trade and sex trade and deal with the negative aspects of these trades as health and social issues. I don't think people should be able to dictate their personal moral beliefs onto others. I think prejudice and descrimation against sex workers and substance users should end.

Sat, 2022-11-19 01:13

(Reply to #129) #130

Pondering

JKR wrote:
Pondering wrote:
Street prostitution is not a health issue. Street prostitution is employers cruising for vulnerable workers who are willing to endanger themselves and willing to work under abusive conditions.

Many people disagree with your personal opinion regarding sex work and the sex trade. Many people don’t view sex work pejoratively like you do. Why should your personal opinions dictate the lives of others and criminalize others?

That isn't my personal opinion. Are you contesting the Supreme Court description of what street prostitution is? Do you think working conditions are better than what I am describing?

You keep trying to bring it back to opinions as though they are free-floating. You don't want to acknowledge the facts. You want to talk about all of prostitution as if there is no difference between street prostitution and call girls.

Why would you need a harm reduction approach for street prostitution if it is just a job like any other? What is the harm that would be reduced?

Sat, 2022-11-19 01:50

#131

JKR

Most if not all jobs have harm reduction approaches to make them safer. What makes the harm reduction approaches different for sex work and drug use is that they have been crimanilized so the harm reduction approaches for them have to be done in a grey area of the law. All the criminal aspects that can happen with street sex work, and other types of work, can be illegal and punished without specifically criminalizing sex work including street sex work. For instance when a cab driver has something illegal happen to them the law deals with the problem without criminalizing cab work, cab drivers, or cab passengers.

I think all the negative aspects of sex work can be dealt by our legal system without singling out sex work or street sex work. This singling out in itself causes a lot of problems.

Sat, 2022-11-19 02:03

#132

Pondering

JKR wrote:
Why not just decriminalize the buying and selling of both sex and drugs? Our social service systems and health care systems could deal with the negative aspects caused by the drug trade and sex trade as they already do with other social and health issues.

You want to legalize selling heroin and fentanyl?

JKR wrote:
I think Harper established C-36 primarily to get electoral support from Christian social conservatives who oppose the sex trade workers and the sex trade for religious reasons. ....

So what? That has nothing to do with whether or not prostitution should be legal and if so what types.

JKR wrote:
Hopefully the Liberals will still be in power when C-36 is overturned and they will establish much better legislation.

It won't be overturned. It was well written to withstand challenge.

JKR wrote:
I think it would make sense to entirely decriminalize the drug trade and sex trade and deal with the negative aspects of these trades as health and social issues.

Well that's great but your opinion is based on zero information or logic. You have no argument. Just a declaration of your opinion.

JKR wrote:
I don't think people should be able to dictate their personal moral beliefs onto others. I think prejudice and descrimation against sex workers and substance users should end.

Me too, again that has no impact on whether or not the law is positive or negative.

Sat, 2022-11-19 03:54

#133

susan davis susan davis's picture

you keep on referring to Bedford as if it supports your opinions... it doesn't... your opinions are not facts.... your crazy interpretation of Bedford is not "facts' and does not come even close to arguments that would stand the test of "evidence" in the SPOC......

thank you JKR....

this is friggin exhausting.....

Sat, 2022-11-19 03:55

#134

susan davis susan davis's picture

I would wager that justice Himmel would have a thing or two to say about your interpretation of her decision..... jeezus

Sat, 2022-11-19 04:00

#135

Pondering

JKR, the following is the fault of people like you.

https://archive.macleans.ca/article/1995/7/17/a-no-to-dirty-dancing

An ex-stripper leads a campaign to ban ‘lap dancing’ in Ontario’s nightclubs JULY 17 1995

Now, if the customer says yes to the dancer’s come-on, she will typically lead him to a booth and stage a private performance. For $10, she will gyrate completely nude and rub herself against his crotch; for $20, she will let him touch her while she moves around on him. The service has come to be known as “lap dancing,” and many of its customers achieve orgasm. In some of the shadier bars, the dancers also take part in oral sex and even full intercourse. Since a landmark ruling last year by Ontario Court Judge Gordon Hachbom, touching between customers and exotic dancers, traditionally taboo in the province’s strip bars, is no longer a criminal act. And with bar owners responding swiftly to a new revenue opportunity, staid old Ontario has gained the dubious distinction of becoming the lap-dancing capital of North America.

According to police, community workers and the dancers themselves, the lap-dancing boom has opened the door for prostitution, sexual assault and the transmission of disease. Exotic dancers, they say, are no longer selling mere fantasy—they are being forced to sell their flesh. But there is little that law enforcement authorities can do about it, thanks largely to Hachborns February, 1994, decision. The judge dismissed charges of staging an indecent theatrical performance against Cheaters Tavern, then one of only a handful of Toronto bars offering lap dancing. He ruled that a wide range of body contact—from touching breasts to oral sex— did not violate community standards, and therefore was not obscene. In the 17 months since, the full-contact lap dance has completely replaced its tamer predecessor, no-contact “table dancing”—a look-only performance at a client’s table rather than on a stage.

The change was not a welcome one for Katherine Goldberg, a former exotic dancer who is fighting a one-woman campaign to ban lap dancing. Now 31, Goldberg began stripping seven years ago after the breakup of her first marriage. With two children to look after and bills piling up, she entered the business out of desperation. She soon found herself enjoying the costumes and the glamor, she says, and she even formed lasting friendships with some of her customers. The money was good: a popular table dancer could easily make $200 a night or more.

For the past four years, Goldberg worked in the sprawling basement lounge of Filmores Hotel, in downtown Toronto. But things changed quickly after the Hachborn decision. The club built booths, she says, “and they said, well, there’s lap dancing now.” The management brought in so-called “dirty dancers” to train the strippers in the art of lap dancing. Gradually, the signs forbidding touching between dancers and customers came down. And although the managers told the dancers that lap dancing was voluntary, Goldberg says that it soon became the only way to make any money.

The clientele at the bar changed—less gentlemanly, more demanding. “I was only making $20 or $30 a night because I refused to do more than a dance,” Goldberg says. “They wanted me to do sexual stuff, and most of the time they didn’t even ask.” To Goldberg, who had remarried, that was sexual assault—and it began to take a psychological toll. “I would be angry with my kids, angry with my husband before I went in to work,” she says. “And when I got home and took a shower, it didn’t even help. I felt dirty.” Goldberg says she worried that lap dancing was exposing her to the risk of sexually transmitted diseases and that the conditions were generally unsanitary. “Some of the dancers were having sex, so there would be used condoms on the couches,” she said. Goldberg began talking to other dancers about her concerns and posting anti-lap-dancing leaflets in the change rooms. In May, she told her story to local newspapers. On May 23, the day after her photo appeared in The Toronto Star, the club told her not to bother coming in again. “They told me, ‘We don’t want you here because this is a lap-dancing club,’ ” Goldberg recalls. “That’s when I decided that I had to go out and do more.”

That is not what freedom for women looks like. That is what sexual servitude looks like.

Sat, 2022-11-19 04:17

#136

Pondering

Susan, the Bedford decision contained a description of street prostitution. That is the only aspect of the decision I have been referencing in order to point out that these are not workers who would otherwise be working indoors and the working conditions they face are abusive and dangerous.

Vulnerable people shouldn't be subjected to that. Legitimizing it is unacceptable. It should be illegal even if it can't be stopped entirely. Men should feel nervous people will find out how they take advantage of vulnerable women.

Sat, 2022-11-19 11:00

(Reply to #136) #137

JKR

Pondering wrote:
You want to legalize selling heroin and fentanyl?

I think medical professionals like nurses, doctors, and pharmacists, should be able to prescribe these kinds of drugs to their clients. I think these professionals, like other professionals, can operate under sensible regulations created by their professional associations and governments. I think abolition has been a complete failure and is causing 6 people on average to die every single day from a toxic drug supply here in BC alone!!!!! I think sex work can also be done using professional regulations that are established cooperatively and in good faith between sex workers and the provincial government. I think professionals like doctors, nurses, pharmacists, and sex workers should be allowed to work without being dictated to by people who want their scriptures to dictate their professions.

Sat, 2022-11-19 12:07

#138

Pondering

JKR wrote:
I think medical professionals like nurses, doctors, and pharmacists, should be able to prescribe these kinds of drugs to their clients.

I agree. That is not the same thing as legalizing drug dealers.

JKR wrote:
I think sex work can also be done using professional regulations that are established cooperatively and in good faith between sex workers and the provincial government. Again, you think someone can wave a magin wand and make getting into strangers cars safe.

You think mentally ill and drug addicted sex workers are in a position to advocate for themselves. I don't agree. I think we have a duty as a society to prevent what abuse can be prevented.

JKR wrote:
I think professionals like doctors, nurses, pharmacists, and sex workers should be allowed to work without being dictated to by people who want their scriptures to dictate their professions.

Which one of these, doctors, nurses, pharmacists, and sex workers is not like the other. I don't think medical professionals should get to dictate laws surrounding medicine. There are doctors opposed to medicare.

I am an atheist. We don't have a soul. We are animals. When we die our lives are over.

Your fixation on religion is getting weird. Do you have a Madonna/whore fixation that divides women in to two types? I assure you it is false. The women that have fallen into drug abuse and mental illness are not a different breed of women less worthy of protection than other women or other workers.

Sat, 2022-11-19 12:13

#139

JKR

Pondering, it seems to me you are twisting my words like pretzels. I don't think you are communicating in good faith. I think your disparagement and disrespect of sex workers is very very unfortunate.

Sat, 2022-11-19 12:29

(Reply to #139) #140

JKR

susan davis wrote:

thank you JKR....

this is friggin exhausting.....

I agree it sucks. Fortunately I think most people here support you and sex workers. This prejudice and discrimination is very disappointing to see here. When discussing these kinds of issues that cause so much personal disagreement I think it's important to also prioritize your health including mental health.

Sat, 2022-11-19 13:26

(Reply to #140) #141

Pondering

JKR wrote:

Pondering, it seems to me you are twisting my words like pretzels. I don't think you are communicating in good faith. I think your disparagement and disrespect of sex workers is very very unfortunate.

I'm not twisting your words at all. I am holding you to them which you hate. What qualifies you to even have an opinion? You know nothing about the topic. You have no ideas on what kind of framework would protect streetworkers. Not a single suggestion. You pay zero attention to research.Susan's solution is opening a brothel where they wouldn't be hired. Both of you think making it legal for men to cruise would be helpful but neither of you can explain how that would make working conditions adequate or safe.

Your concern for sex workers is skin deep because you are not a woman. We are not worth the effort it would take for you to really examine the facts and think about how women would be made safer. Your solution is "let sex workers decide". Which sex workers? Were any elected to represent the rest? Are strippers who don't want to be prostitutes represented? Are mentally ill drug addicted women in a position to advocate for their own safety?

Please quote anywhere that I have disparaged or disrespected sex workers.

You can't, because you are lying. You are a typical sexist man who thinks he knows what's best for women without even bothering to inform yourself.

Sat, 2022-11-19 13:27

(Reply to #141) #142

Pondering

JKR wrote:
I agree it sucks. Fortunately I think most people here support you and sex workers. This prejudice and discrimination is very disappointing to see here. When discussing these kinds of issues that cause so much personal disagreement I think it's important to also prioritize your health including mental health.

Why are you trolling this topic? Why don't you care about the strippers forced into giving lap dancing?

Sat, 2022-11-19 14:02

#143

JKR

Pondering, I think discussing this topic with you has become toxic so I"ll stop. Hopefully the courts will bring down a good decision.

Sat, 2022-11-19 15:20

#144

susan davis susan davis's picture

thank you for once again dimishing my arguements and calling our complex and detailed plans - "opening a brothel" where street level sex workers won't be hired....

because that is not a reflection of OHS implementation, safe work spaces, cooperative development, credit union develeopment, union development and acceditation for business owners....

but you are the expert right? you know everything and are the best person to represent what sex workers want right? calling people names because they don't agree with you is not doing you any favors.... you just look like you are throwing a tantrum....

i am grateful that the majority of Canadians understand this issue and understand that criminalizing sex work does nothing to promote sex worker health and safety or the ability of sex workers to collectively bargain for example against showlounge owners changing their work without consulting them first...

I have offered solutions and explained why this is important to address street level sex worker safety.....

but no.....

Susan wants to open a brothel - where street level sex workers wouldn't hired....

that's what your take is.....

Sat, 2022-11-19 15:27

#145

susan davis susan davis's picture

and being a "woman".....? does not automatically give you knowledge about sex work as has been proven by you over and over in these threads....

sex workers are gender diverse and men are sex workers too....

just another "opinion" you hold which has no basis in reality when it comes to this issue

Sat, 2022-11-19 15:43

#146

kropotkin1951

Susan it would seem that Pondering's gender makes her uniquely placed to know what real women think but also what men think about women. It seems to me to come down to a world view that says men are predominately misogynists and women <except for Pondering. are primarily victims of that misogyny. The battle lines are clear and any attempt to have a cross gender alliance will prove futile given those innate natures in men and women.

Sat, 2022-11-19 21:07

#147

Pondering

Not all sex workers want to perform sexual services. "Allowing" lap dancing forced strippers to start grinding in men's laps instead of table dancing.

https://archive.macleans.ca/article/1995/7/17/a-no-to-dirty-dancing

An ex-stripper leads a campaign to ban ‘lap dancing’ in Ontario’s nightclubs

Now, if the customer says yes to the dancer’s come-on, she will typically lead him to a booth and stage a private performance. For $10, she will gyrate completely nude and rub herself against his crotch; for $20, she will let him touch her while she moves around on him. The service has come to be known as “lap dancing,” and many of its customers achieve orgasm. In some of the shadier bars, the dancers also take part in oral sex and even full intercourse. Since a landmark ruling last year by Ontario Court

The change was not a welcome one for Katherine Goldberg, a former exotic dancer who is fighting a one-woman campaign to ban lap dancing. Now 31, Goldberg began stripping seven years ago after the breakup of her first marriage. With two children to look after and bills piling up, she entered the business out of desperation. She soon found herself enjoying the costumes and the glamor, she says, and she even formed lasting friendships with some of her customers. The money was good: a popular table dancer could easily make $200 a night or more...

...The clientele at the bar changed—less gentlemanly, more demanding. “I was only making $20 or $30 a night because I refused to do more than a dance,” Goldberg says. “They wanted me to do sexual stuff, and most of the time they didn’t even ask.” To Goldberg, who had remarried, that was sexual assault—and it began to take a psychological toll.

Even though she entered the business out of desperation she didn't have to tolerate being touched. Before table dancing a stripper didn't even have to get off the stage.

Women's sexuality has been and continues to be massively devalued. Decriminalizing prostitution is not going to help keep prices up. Under a capitalist model women will be forced to do more for less.

Sun, 2022-11-20 12:58

#148

Pondering

Moving to other thread

Sun, 2022-11-20 19:58

#149

JKR

https://rabble.ca/columnists/sex-work-a-contemporary-identity-rooted-in-labour/

Sex work: a contemporary identity rooted in labour

by Natasha DarlingSeptember 9, 2022

Following Labour Day, this column explores the origin of the phrase sex work and how sex workers are an important part of the labour movement.

Poster reading 'sex work is work' with a sunflower sculpture in the background.

Poster reading 'sex work is work' with a sunflower sculpture in the background. Credit: SG ZA / Wikimedia Commons

You might have heard the phrase “sex work is real work.” You might have noticed that the word prostitute is no longer used in the media, and think to yourself that sex work/sex worker is a politically correct way to say prostitute. This is a fair inference, but not the full story. Seeing how Labour Day just passed, I’d like to talk about the origin of the phrase sex work, why it’s important, and how sex workers are an important part of the labour movement.

The phrase sex work was initially conceived by Carol Leigh, an American sex worker, artist, health promoter and activist in the late 1970s. Leigh performed under the name Scarlot Harlot, and first used the phrase in her one-woman play, The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot, also known as The Demystification of The Sex Work Industry. The play begins with Scarlot shouting, “Sex workers unite!” Leigh went on to use and ask that it be used in feminist organizing meetings during the 1970s and 80s.

The phrase sex work and the surrounding vocabulary changes are important because previous wording (prostitute, whore) is demeaning and pejorative. These words are widely used as an insult, mostly towards women and femmes, whether they are sex workers or not. Rooted in misogyny, these words aim to shame us into compliance in terms of how women are supposed to behave sexually, and in the way we dress — proverbial scarlet letters, if you will. For a more in depth analysis, there is an excellent primer by Stella, a sex work advocacy organization based in Montreal.

Like many other marginalized groups, sex workers believe that language matters, and aim to reduce stigma by introducing new or better wording to describe themselves. At the same time, there is also a reclaiming of pejorative words in the same way that other equity seeking groups reclaim them. In the same way that some women call their friends “my bitches,” I’m part of a WhatsApp text group called “les putes,” which is French for “the whores.”

In today’s use, sex work is an umbrella term used for any and all work that involves sexual labor in exchange for money, not just full service (sexual intercourse) sex work. Strippers, adult content creators on platforms like OnlyFans, BDSM practitioners, erotic masseuses and porn performers fall in this category. Although some forms of sex work are more legal than others, the constants that unite them remain the same: we are a workforce that is heavily policed, heavily stigmatized, and the working conditions are mostly precarious in terms of labour conditions.

Decades later, in 2017, Leigh reflects on the phrase while being interviewed for the ACT UP Oral History Project:

“People have spoken about coining a term. I also feel like I helped launch an identity. There’s always been that identity of sex worker libertine really, or a sex worker who’s not ashamed and that’s part of it, but to launch it as a contemporary identity rooted in labour is something that hadn’t happened before.”

Keep in mind that the Stonewall riots, which were a reaction to police brutality against the LGBTQ+ community, happened in 1969. Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera, both instrumental figures in the gay liberation movement and in the Stonewall riots, were both racialized, transgender sex workers.

Another historically significant act of sex worker resistance was the 1975 occupation of Saint- Nizier church in Lyon, France. On June 2, 1975, approximately 150 sex workers occupied the church for eight days. They were protesting increased police surveillance and brutality that followed an investigation into the police force. It uncovered corruption in the Lyon police force, some of whom were tried for pimping. Solidarity church occupations sprung up all over France, most notably, the feminist philosopher Simone de Beauvoir showed in Paris in support of the occupation.

What did the sex workers occupying the church want? The same thing that sex workers and sex work advocacy organizations want today: full decriminalization of sex work, access to government supports when times are tough (such as access to CERB during the pandemic), and the recognition by the criminal justice system, government and the public that it’s poverty that’s an inherent danger to society, and not sex work.

There have been, of course, other, no less important protests and brilliant labour organizing moments in the global south, each of which deserve their own column. Sex workers have managed to become part of the mainstream labour movement. In India, sex workers’ unions are part of broader coalitions of unions. In Nicaragua, the organization Girasoles de Nicaragua(Sunflowers of Nicaragua) also belongs to a larger union that represents precarious/informal economy workers. What’s even more notable is that their members serve as judicial facilitators, a type of peer worker who advocates that sex workers are treated fairly in their interactions with the criminal justice system.

Sex workers show up and support racialized and other communities that face systemic oppression. We supported the movement for gay liberation. We supported our communities and each other during numerous public health crises – AIDS, COVID-19, and now monkeypox. We help organize harm reduction outreach, mutual aid, Slut Walks and other gender based violence prevention initiatives. We always show up for sexual and reproductive freedoms.

When we try to unionize our strip clubs, when we fight to keep our massage parlors open, when we push for full decriminalization of sex work so we can live and work in safety and dignity, show your solidarity with sex workers. We are part of the working class – show up for us!

Falling in love with a prostitute and safe sex toysJanuary 18, 2010In "conservation"

The audacity of sex workersAugust 2, 2013In "Feminism"

Sun, 2022-11-20 21:35

#150

Pondering

In today’s use, sex work is an umbrella term used for any and all work that involves sexual labor in exchange for money, not just full service (sexual intercourse) sex work.

By trying to erase the word prostitution they make it impossible to refer to. Sex work is not illegal. Only prostitution is illegal.

It isn't the word that carries the stigma it is the action. Prostitutes have sex with married men. I'm not going to introduce one to my friend's husbands. Prostitutes have sex with men they would otherwise not have sex with for money. Many women consider that extremely distasteful and degrading. A woman who will do it will be pitied at best.

If a stripper is a plus one at a family BBQ in most cases they would be better off keeping their job private. If they are a full service sex worker even more so. Decriminalization wouldn't change that.

Sun, 2022-11-20 22:17

(Reply to #150) #151

JKR

Pondering wrote:

Prostitutes have sex with married men. I'm not going to introduce one to my friend's husbands. Prostitutes have sex with men they would otherwise not have sex with for money. Many women consider that extremely distasteful and degrading. A woman who will do it will be pitied at best.

If a stripper is a plus one at a family BBQ in most cases they would be better off keeping their job private. If they are a full service sex worker even more so.

It sounds like you support dislike, stigmatization, prejudice, and even hatred towards sex workers.

Sex as labour

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