Looking back at the UN's establishment of the State of Israel, I think the UN should not have voted for the Partition Plan. Instead I think they should have internationalized the whole of the British Mandate, like the Partition Plan wanted for the area of Jerusalem. I think the UN should have taken over the whole area of the British Mandate and supported establishing a permanent peace treaty between Jews and Arabs of the area. Unfortunately that didn't happen and a permanent peace agreement has still not been established.
International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's Working Definition of Antisemitism
Wed, 2024-04-03 01:17
#102
Wed, 2024-04-03 09:31
#103
6079_Smith_W, you obviously know the difference between “proclaiming” and “establishing.”
Yeah, sure. I don't know anything.
What are you saying? Theodore Herzl and David Ben Gurion had nothing to do with the ideology of Zionism and determining how the colonial venture would treat the people who already lived in Palestine?
You are trying to pretend all Ben Gurion did was cut the ribbon for the U.N. and his policies as head of the Jewish Agency and as Israel's founder and first prime minister mean nothing? That he didn't create the IDF?
Are you trying to pretend that Theodore Herzl was just some scribbler and didn't create European Zionism? That he isn't considered the spiritual father of Israel, and he is entombed on the mountain named in his honour for no reason?
I might not be too smart, but I am not so stupid that I am going to fall for your nonsense .
Kind of funny that you fall back on the ridiculous claim that it was all the U.N. and the Zionists had nothing to do with it.
Palestine and Israel might have had a chance at that time if it had been a U.N. venture, rather than Europeans who wanted nothing to do with the culture that was already in Palestine. You trying to ignore their words, and ignore the fact they determined how Israel regarded and treated people in Palestine (including the Jews who already lived there) does not erase what they said and did. They quite clearly didn't see it as you claim - a land that belongs to everyone who lives on it.
Maybe you should read a bit of the history yourself.
Wed, 2024-04-03 09:39
#104
I think the UN should have taken over the whole area of the British Mandate and supported establishing a permanent peace treaty between Jews and Arabs of the area. Unfortunately that didn't happen and a permanent peace agreement has still not been established.
That's kind of funny.
If I didn't know you I might assume you are saying you think the Zionist State of Israel was a bad idea that should not have been created. Because that is what you are saying.
Who knew you would be saying the same thing that Hamas does in its charter.
Wed, 2024-04-03 10:33
#105
6079_Smith_W, you obviously know the difference between “proclaiming” and “establishing.”
Yeah, sure. I don't know anything.
What are you saying? Theodore Herzl and David Ben Gurion had nothing to do with the ideology of Zionism and determining how the colonial venture would treat the people who already lived in Palestine?
You are trying to pretend all Ben Gurion did was cut the ribbon for the U.N. and his policies as head of the Jewish Agency and as Israel's founder and first prime minister mean nothing? That he didn't create the IDF?
Are you trying to pretend that Theodore Herzl was just some scribbler and didn't create European Zionism? That he isn't considered the spiritual father of Israel, and he is entombed on the mountain named in his honour for no reason?
I might not be too smart, but I am not so stupid that I am going to fall for your nonsense .
Kind of funny that you fall back on the ridiculous claim that it was all the U.N. and the Zionists had nothing to do with it.
Palestine and Israel might have had a chance at that time if it had been a U.N. venture, rather than Europeans who wanted nothing to do with the culture that was already in Palestine. You trying to ignore their words, and ignore the fact they determined how Israel regarded and treated people in Palestine (including the Jews who already lived there) does not erase what they said and did. They quite clearly didn't see it as you claim - a land that belongs to everyone who lives on it.
Maybe you should read a bit of the history yourself.
Obviously Zionist leaders played a very important role in establishing Zionism and had an important role in developing the State of Israel. It is also true that Jewish leaders within the British Mandate supported partition plans that opposed anyone having to leave where they lived. It is also true that the UN established the State of Israel. These aren’t mutually exclusive occurrences. If the UN had not voted to establish the State of Israel the State would not have been established even though it would have probably disappointed Ben-Gurion and most Zionists. Two-thirds of the members of the UN established the State of Israel as a 2/3rds vote was what was legally required.
Wed, 2024-04-03 10:38
#106
I think the UN should have taken over the whole area of the British Mandate and supported establishing a permanent peace treaty between Jews and Arabs of the area. Unfortunately that didn't happen and a permanent peace agreement has still not been established.That's kind of funny.
If I didn't know you I might assume you are saying you think the Zionist State of Israel was a bad idea that should not have been created. Because that is what you are saying.
Who knew you would be saying the same thing that Hamas does in its charter.
I am saying a much better job could have been done by the UN and the British in establishing a state or states in the British Mandate that supported the right of self determination for both Jews and Arabs living in the British Mandate. Unfortunately Hamas violently opposes the right of Israelis to have the right of self determination and the right of both Israelis and Palestinians to both permanently live in peace That’s wrong.
Wed, 2024-04-03 14:28
#107
You are kind of missing the point, which is that Zionist leaders didn't see anyone living in Palestine as part of their European colonial venture.
Wed, 2024-04-03 14:56
#108
You think Zionist leaders thought they could expel everyone from the area? All the partition plans including the UN's Partition Plan had nothing to do with expelling anyone. The idea of Zionists wanting to expel everyone makes no sense. I think your cartoon version of Zionism is way off the mark. This idea just seems like propaganda to make it admissible to violently attack Israel and deny its right to exist.
Wed, 2024-04-03 15:15
#109
You think Zionist leaders thought they could expel everyone from the area?
Well they seem to be trying, and you have floated that argument a few times when you blamed Egypt and Jordan for not helping Israel push everyone out by opening the borders.
But no, I didn't say that.
I have already said what my point is - that statements like Herzl's and Ben Gurion's about fighting the spirit of the Levant, "authentic Jewish values" being the European ones, and building a European rampart of civilization against barbarism show that the image you are trying to sell is the cartoon.
The Zionists wanted nothing to do with anyone in the Middle East, not even the Jewish population there. They weren't coming back to reclaim their homeland because they saw themselves as European. That fairytale is just some excuse they sell to the rest of us to justify it. Just like your kumbaya fairytale that you expect us to buy while Israel is dropping bombs and starving the people who you blame for not accepting peace.
Wed, 2024-04-03 17:00
#110
6079_Smith_W wrote:
The Zionists wanted nothing to do with anyone in the Middle East, not even the Jewish population there.
End of quote.
————
————
What “Zionists” are you referring to? Are these kind of “Zionists” currently living in Israel? If so, how many?
Wed, 2024-04-03 18:01
#111
Oh look... they have all disappeared!
Can't imagine who bombed all those hospitals and systematically murdered those aid workers.
I'd say you're quite the comedian, JKR, except the sad truth is there probably is going to be a day when people won't want to admit to what they did and what they supported, especially given the atrocity being committed right now.
For now though, some of it is on record. I have posted this 2019 NYT piece already, which hit social media for the one person who said flat out that she is a fascist (and the lame ass journalist musing about what a curiosity they are). But there are plenty of other revealing things, like the guy who compares what his kids are seeing to growing up in a slave state, and the woman who thinks getting stabbed was a message from god.
Lots of denial to go around.
https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000006401232/natural-born-settl...
Wed, 2024-04-03 18:08
#112
And here is another part of it in Israel, not the occupied territories. Aren't you supposed to know what is going on there? You sure talk like you do.
https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/racism-in-israel-some-jews-are-more-equ...
Wed, 2024-04-03 18:11
#113
I think this is a very tiny minority of Israelis. How many Israelis do you consider to be these kind of "evil Zionists?"
Wed, 2024-04-03 18:30
#114
Gee, you really do think they have all disappeared. Or that's the only answer you can come up with.
I dunno, JKR. But someone is voting them in. Someone is actively occupying the West Bank. Someone is doing their military service. Someone is deliberately shooting journalists and aid workers and children. Someone is torturing false confessions. Someone is buying those stolen properties. Someone is bankrolling that genocide.
Strangely enough JKR, the mealy-mouthed lefty journalist who treated the self-described fascist as a curiosity is just as bad in many ways.
Those who actually commit the atrocities wouldn't have quite an easy time of it without the army of apologists working hard to pretend they aren't there.
Wed, 2024-04-03 18:49
#115
I agree that there are radical right wing Israelis. I think they are a tiny minority. Do you also think they are a minority of Israelis?
Wed, 2024-04-03 19:06
#116
What “Zionists” are you referring to? Are these kind of “Zionists” currently living in Israel? If so, how many?
I think this is a very tiny minority of Israelis. How many Israelis do you consider to be these kind of "evil Zionists?"
I agree that there are radical right wing Israelis. I think they are a tiny minority. Do you also think they are a minority of Israelis?
I think your needle is skipping, JKR.
Yeah, I am sure everyone is going to claim to be "good Israelis" after this is all over.
Wed, 2024-04-03 19:20
#117
I think your needle is skipping when you avoid giving a simple answer to a simple question over and over and over again. What you are saying leaves the impression you think most Israelis are "evil Zionists." You've also stated these "evil Zionists" don't even care about Jews. Am I misreading what you have said?
Wed, 2024-04-03 19:41
#118
You didn't bother reading what I said at 114? Or watch the video or read the article I posted just before that?
What you "think" doesn't mean a damn thing without evidence to back it up. What matters is people's actions there on the ground.
It is bad enough that people deliberately deny this genocide. Your constant fallback on hypotheticals like "one day there will be peace" or you claiming to be unable to find anyone responsible for this atrocity is just dumb.
Or maybe you aren't; maybe you just play one on tv.
Wed, 2024-04-03 19:57
#119
I read your article and watched your video. They don't describe the vast majority of Israelis. The article and video are anti-Israel propaganda aimed at demonizing and dehumanizing Israelis.
Wed, 2024-04-03 20:24
#120
Won't consider evidence, but you're stuck on a meaningless question about that I "think".
I did know already why you were repeatedly asking it.
Wed, 2024-04-03 20:51
#121
You have no evidence that most Israelis are what you make them out to be so pejoratively. You stated Zionism and Zionists oppose Judaism and Jews yet the majority of Israelis are Jewish.
If you say most Israelis are evil you should have to back up that allegation with some facts that show the majority of Israelis are evil.
Wed, 2024-04-03 21:06
#122
You are being ridiculous, JKR.
and because I am not interested in playing your game you double down and accuse me of things I did not say.
Evil? Really. Surely you can be more melodramatic than that.
And I know I'd be wasting my time if I asked you for a quote.
Wed, 2024-04-03 21:12
#123
Propaganda, obviously.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2012/10/29/israel-is-an-apartheid-sta...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/23/israeli-poll-majority-apar...
We're racists, the Israelis are saying, we practice apartheid and we even want to live in an apartheid state. Yes, this is Israel.
- Gideon Levy, in Haaretz
https://www.haaretz.com/2012-10-23/ty-article/.premium/gideon-levy-racis...
Wed, 2024-04-03 21:20
#124
The majority of Israelis don't want to live in an apartheid state. The majority of Jews don't view themselves as being racists.
Wed, 2024-04-03 21:26
#125
An Israeli media domestic poll was among the many that found a majority of Israelis do support apartheid.
I know I posted this editorial from an Israeli source before.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/1/9/the-zionist-fallacy-of-jewis...
Wed, 2024-04-03 21:48
#126
Since your sources are just anti-Israel propaganda your outlook on this conflict is very one sided, biased, and inaccurate. This explains why you support an incredibly negative characterization of Israelis. Peace can not be established through dehumanization. Dehumanization supports war which is the objective of dehumanizing Israelis.
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