How does an example of Likud's positions change the fact that Hamas is virulently antisemitic? Complete non sequitur.
Likud—the main party in Israel for the last 45 years—is virulently anti-Palestinian. Yet, you do your best to avoid addressing that fact.
6079_Smith_W wrote:
Where does it speak pejoratively about Judaism?
There are clauses in there about not stealing Muslim sites and "Judaeizing" them. But it is pretty clear that it is the work of Zionists.
We aren't talking about whether there are antisemitic elements in Hamas. I am asking you about their charter in comparison to the IHRA definition of antisemitism, which is an absolute dog's breakfast.
———-
———-
We’re not discussing their charter. We’re discussing their “General Principles and Policies.” They still stand by their charter that was written in 1988.
Speaking about erasing the “Judaeizing” of Israel is obviously antisemitic. Speaking about violently removing Israel and Islam then ruling all of the area is obviously antisemitic.
Why are you defending Hamas?
How does an example of Likud's positions change the fact that Hamas is virulently antisemitic? Complete non sequitur.
Likud—the main party in Israel for the last 45 years—is virulently anti-Palestinian. Yet, you do your best to avoid addressing that fact.
I have often said I oppose Likud. Happily, they will likely lose the next election. Over the last 45 years other parties have often formed governments. Both Hamas and Likud are bad actors.
We’re not discussing their charter.
Why are you defending Hamas?
Actually, you opened the door to this by making a claim about their charter.
Anyone reading the Hamas Charter knows that some criticism of Israel can be very antisemitic.
So ante up, if you aren't just talking out of your ass.
And I am not defending Hamas. I am asking you to back up your claims with evidence.
We’re not discussing their charter.
Why are you defending Hamas?
Actually, you opened the door to this by making a claim about their charter.
Anyone reading the Hamas Charter knows that some criticism of Israel can be very antisemitic.
So ante up, if you aren't just talking out of your ass.
And I am not defending Hamas. I am asking you to back up your claims with evidence.
Hamas’s Charter of 1988 is obviously antisemitic. Hamas’s 2017 “Document of General Principles and Policies” is not their charter and it also argues that Jewish Israelis have no right of self determination and should have to live under Islamic rule. This too is antisemitic. Why doesn’t Hamas disavow and repudiate their 1988 Charter? Hamas tells their own people that their 1988 Charter still stands. Hamas isn’t fooling Israelis or most everyone else who can plainly see they’re antisemitic.
Hamas actions on 10/7 coincided with the ideology espoused in their 1988 Charter, in their “2017 Document of General Principles and Policies,” and in the virulent antisemitism regularly espoused by Hamas.
Still waiting for the text, JKR.
Show me the words.
That was the old Hamas. The new Hamas are more friendly and open to collaboration.
That was the old Hamas. The new Hamas are more friendly and open to collaboration.
I am just asking for words on paper. Same as we are talking about with the IHRA definition that JKR claims is just fine while he says the Hamas Charter is full of antisemitism. .
Still waiting for the text, JKR.
Show me the words.
The Hamas Covenant
https://embassies.gov.il/holysee/AboutIsrael/the-middle-east/Pages/The%2...
The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August 18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS, is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad (Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS Covenant:
Goals of the HAMAS:
"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." (Article 6)
On the destruction of Israel:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)
The exclusive Moslem nature of the area:
"The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it." (Article 11)
"Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be." (Article 13)
The call to jihad:
"The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15)
"Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about." (Article 33)
Rejection of a negotiated peace settlement:
"[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)
Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:
"Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act." (Article 32)
Anti-Semitic incitement:
The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7) "The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it." (Article 22)
"Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32)
"The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews." (Article 32)
————
Analysis of the Hamas Charter
(Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center)
From address by FM Avigdor Liberman to the Global Forum for Combating Antisemitism - Dec 2009
The Hamas charter is the document which sets out the movement's ideology as it was formulated and honed by its founders. It includes its radical Islamic world view (conceived by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt), which has basically not changed in the 18 years of its existence. With regard to Israel, the charter's stance is uncompromising. It views the "problem of Palestine" as a religious-political Muslim issue, and the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation as a conflict between Islam and the "infidel" Jews. "Palestine" is presented as sacred Islamic land and it is strictly forbidden to give up an inch of it because no one (including Arab-Muslim rulers) has the authority to do so. With regard to international relations, the charter manifests an extremist worldview which is as anti-Western as Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.
That worldview brings in its wake the refusal to recognize the State of Israel's right to exist as an independent, sovereign nation, the waging of a ceaseless jihad (holy war) against it and total opposition to any agreement or arrangement that would recognize its right to exist. At the beginning of the charter there is a quotation attributed to Hassan Al-Bana,4 that "Israel will arise and continue to exist until Islam wipes it out, as it wiped out what went before."
Overt, vicious anti-Semitism, with both Islamic and Christian-European origins, is used extensively throughout the document. The all-out holy war (jihad) against the Jewish people is legitimized by presenting the Jews in a negative light and demonizing them as wanting to take over not only the Middle East but also the rest of the world. One of the jihad's deadliest manifestations is suicide bombing terrorism, which was developed mainly by Hamas during the 1990s and has become its leading "strategy" in the ongoing violent Israeli-Palestinian confrontation.
The Jews are also presented as worthy of only humiliation and lives of misery. That is because, according to the charter, they angered Allah, rejected the Qur'an and killed the prophets (the relevant Qur'an verse from Surah Aal-‘Imran is quoted at the beginning of the charter). The document also includes anti-Semitic myths taken from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (mentioned in Article 32) regarding Jewish control of the media, the film industry and education (Articles 17 and 22). The myths are constantly repeated to represent the Jews as responsible for the French and Russian revolutions and for all world and local wars: "No war takes place anywhere without the Jews' being behind it" (Article 22). The charter demonizes the Jews and describes them as brutally behaving like Nazis toward women and children (Article 29).
The charter views the jihad (holy war) as the way to take all of "Palestine" from the Jews and to destroy the State of Israel, and Hamas's terrorist attacks are seen as links in the jihad chain carried out during the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Article 15 states that "the jihad to liberate ‘Palestine' is the personal duty" of every Muslim, an idea expounded by ‘Abdallah ‘Azzam.
The charter emphasizes the battle for Muslim hearts and minds or "the spread of Islamic consciousness" within three main spheres: the Palestinians, the Arab Muslims and the non-Arab Muslims (Article 15). The process of fostering and spreading that "Islamic consciousness" is defined as its most important mission. Clerics, educators, men of culture, those active in the media and information services and the generally educated public all have the responsibility to carry it out.
As part of the battle for hearts and minds, the charter places a special emphasis on education [i.e., indoctrination] in the spirit of radical Islam, based on the ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood. Fundamental changes must be made, it states, in the educational system in the PA-administered territories: it must be "purified," purged of "the influences of the ideological invasion brought by the Orientalists and missionaries" (Article 15), and the younger generation should be given a radical Islamic education based exclusively on the Qur'an and the Muslim tradition (the Sunnah). The means used for ideological recruitment, as detailed in the charter, are "books, articles, publications, sermons, flyers, folk songs, poetic language, songs, plays, etc." When imbued with "correct" Islamic belief and culture, they become an important means of raising morale and building the psychological fixation and emotional strength necessary for a continuing "liberation campaign" (Article 19).
The charter stresses the importance of Muslim solidarity according to the commands of the Qur'an and Sunnah, especially in view of the confrontation taking place between Palestinian society and the "terrorist Jewish enemy," described as Nazi-like. One of the expressions of that solidarity is aid to the needy (one of whose main manifestations is the network of various "charitable societies" set up by Hamas, which integrate social activities and support of terrorism).
The charter makes a point of the ideological difference between Hamas, with its radical Islamic world view, and the secularly-oriented The Palestine Liberation Organization, but pays lip service to the need for Palestinian unity needed to face the Jewish enemy. It notes that an Islamic world view completely contradicts The Palestine Liberation Organization's secular orientation and the idea of a secular Palestinian state. Nevertheless, notes the charter, Hamas is prepared to aid and support every "nationalist trend" working "to liberate Palestine" and is not interested in creating schisms and disagreements (Article 27).
The Hamas charter is the document which sets out the movement’s ideology as it was formulated and honed by its founders. It includes its radical Islamic world view (conceived by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt), which has basically not changed in the 18 years of its existence. With regard to Israel, the charter s stance is uncompromising. It views the “problem of Palestine” as a religious political Muslim issue, and the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation as a conflict between Islam and the “infidel” Jews. “Palestine” is presented as sacred Islamic land and it is strictly forbidden to give up an inch of it because no one (including Arab-Muslim rulers) has the authority to do so. With regard to international relations, the charter manifests an extremist worldview which is as anti-Western as Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.
That worldview brings in its wake the refusal to recognize the State of Israel’s right to exist as an independent, sovereign nation, the waging of a ceaseless jihad (holy war) against it and total opposition to any agreement or arrangement that would recognize its right to exist. At the beginning of the charter there is a quotation attributed to Hassan Al-Bana, that “Israel will arise and continue to exist until Islam wipes it out, as it wiped out what went before.”
Overt, vicious anti-Semitism, with both Islamic and Christian-European origins, is used extensively throughout the document. The all-out holy war (jihad) against the Jewish people is legitimized by presenting the Jews in a negative light and demonizing them as wanting to take over not only the Middle East but also the rest of the world. One of the jihad’s deadliest manifestations is suicide bombing terrorism, which was developed mainly by Hamas during the 1990s and has become its leading “strategy” in the ongoing violent Israeli-Palestinian confrontation.
The Jews are also presented as worthy of only humiliation and lives of misery. That is because, according to the charter, they angered Allah, rejected the Qur’an and killed the prophets (the relevant Qur’an verse from Surah Aal-‘Imran is quoted at the beginning of the charter). The document also includes anti-Semitic myths taken from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (mentioned in Article 32) regarding Jewish control of the media, the film industry and education (Articles 17 and 22). The myths are constantly repeated to represent the Jews as responsible for the French and Russian revolutions and for all world and local wars: “No war takes place anywhere without the Jews’ being behind it” (Article 22). The charter demonizes the Jews and describes them as brutally behaving like Nazis toward women and children (Article 29).
The charter views the jihad (holy war) as the way to take all of “Palestine” from the Jews and to destroy the State of Israel, and Hamas’s terrorist attacks are seen as links in the jihad chain carried out during the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Article 15 states that “the jihad to liberate ‘Palestine’ is the personal duty [fardh ‘ayn]” of every Muslim, an idea expounded by ‘Abdallah ‘Azzam.
The charter emphasizes the battle for Muslim hearts and minds, or, “the spread of Islamic consciousness” (al-wa’i al-islami), within three main spheres: the Palestinians, the Arab Muslims and the non-Arab Muslims (Article 15). The process of fostering and spreading that “Islamic consciousness” (amaliyyat al taw aiyah) is defined as its most important mission. Clerics, educators, men of culture, those active in the media and information services and the generally educated public all have the responsibility to carry it out (ibid.).
As part of the battle for hearts and minds, the charter places a special emphasis on education [i.e., indoctrination] in the spirit of radical Islam, based on the ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood. Fundamental changes must be made, it states, in the educational system in the PA-administered territories: it must be “purified,” purged of “the influences of the ideological invasion brought by the Orientalists and missionaries” (Article 15), and the younger generation should be given a radical Islamic education based exclusively on the Qur’an and the Muslim tradition (the Sunnah). The means used for ideological recruitment, as detailed in the charter, are “books, articles, publications, sermons, flyers, folk songs, poetic language, songs, plays, etc.” When imbued with “correct” Islamic belief and culture, they become an important means of raising morale and building the psychological fixation and emotional strength necessary for a continuing “liberation campaign” (Article 19).
The charter stresses the importance of Muslim solidarity according to the commands of the Qur’an and Sunnah, especially in view of the confrontation taking place between Palestinian society and the “terrorist Jewish enemy,” described as Nazi-like. One of the expressions of that solidarity is aid to the needy (one of whose main manifestations is the network of various “charitable societies” set up by Hamas, which integrate social activities and support of terrorism).
The charter makes a point of the ideological difference between Hamas, with its radical Islamic world view, and the secularly-oriented The Palestine Liberation Organization, but pays lip service to the need for Palestinian unity needed to face the Jewish enemy. It notes that an Islamic world view completely contradicts The Palestine Liberation Organization’s secular orientation and the idea of a secular Palestinian state. Nevertheless, notes the charter, Hamas is prepared to aid and support every “nationalist trend” working “to liberate Palestine” and is not interested in creating schisms and disagreements (Article 27).
Still waiting for the text, JKR.
Show me the words.
Hamas In Their Own Words
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words
On October 7, Hamas attacked Israel, slaughtering around 1,200 men, women, children, and infants in the largest and most brutal massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. Hamas terrorists intentionally recorded their murder, rape, and torture of civilians, including around 200 foreign nationals, and took at least 240 hostages back with them to Gaza.
The physical attack was followed by a propaganda and disinformation campaign. Knowing that Israel would have no choice but to respond to the October 7 massacre, Hamas retreated into its network of tunnels beneath the homes, schools, and hospitals of Gaza, using Palestinian civilians as human shields in order to weaponize the resulting civilian casualties.
This left Israel with two options – either do nothing in response to the murder and kidnapping of its citizens by invading Hamas terrorists, thereby inviting more attacks, or act against Hamas as it hid behind and under its own citizens. As Hamas leaders themselves admit, Hamas sees either path as a strategic win for its campaign of terror and incitement against Israel, with the ultimate goal of Israel’s eradication. While there can be legitimate criticism of specific Israeli policies and actions during its war with Hamas, it is paramount to remember this worldview of Hamas.
Since its founding in the late 1980s, Hamas has been promoting rhetoric and policies aimed at destroying the Jewish state of Israel and killing Jews and Israelis around the world. This is evident in their founding charter, which cites the infamous Protocols of the Elders of Zion forgery as “proof” of a Zionist plot to control the world. It remains true after Hamas released a new charter in 2017, which essentially simply swapped the word “Jew” out and replaced it with “Zionist” while repeating antisemitic tropes.
The following are examples of hateful rhetoric by Hamas leaders and officials, as well as language from their charter:
Hamas Leaders and Officials:
Statements by Hamas officials make clear the terrorist organization’s commitment to destroying Israel and killing Jews and Israelis around the world.
Ismail Haniyeh in 2020: He explained that Hamas rejects ceasefire agreements by which, “Gaza would become Singapore,” preferring to remain at war with Israel until a Palestinian state is established from the River to the Sea: “We cannot, in exchange for money or projects, give up Palestine and our weapons. We will not give up the resistance... We will not recognize Israel, Palestine must stretch from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea.”
Hamas official, Hamad Al-Regeb in an April 2023 sermon: He prayed for “annihilation” and “paralysis” of the Jews whom he described as filthy animals: “[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.”
Hamas Political Bureau Chairman Saleh Al-Arouri in an August 2023 interview: He expressed Hamas’ desire for “total war” with Israel: “Therefore, we are convinced that if a total conflict begins, the airspace and seaports of this entity will be shut down, and they will not be able to live without electricity, water, and communications.”
Ahmad Abd Al-Hadi (Hamas representative in Lebanon) in an October 12, 2023 TV show laid out Hamas’ expectation that it would be Israel that would sue for peace and indicated that a ceasefire is part of Hamas’ overall strategy, but said that he was not at liberty to say what exactly Hamas has planned for the next step after a ceasefire. He also stated that October 7 had achieved its intended purpose of landing “a blow to the normalization (of relations between Israel and Arab countries).”
Hamas member, Ghazi Hamad on October 24, 2023: “Israel is a country that has no place on our land […] because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation.” (October 24, 2023, LBC TV (Lebanon)). He also vowed to repeat the October 7 attacks “time and again until Israel is annihilated,” and expressing a desire to “sacrifice martyrs” (referring to Gazan civilians) for Hamas’ ideological aim of destroying Israel.
In a speech before the International Union of Muslim Scholars in Doha on January 9, 2024, Ismaeel Haniyeh, chairman of Hamas's political bureau, called the October 7 massacre the “advanced [battle] front of the Ummah.” Calling for “financial jihad” (donations to Hamas) and “jihad of the teeth” (physical jihad), he asked the international audience, “Who wishes to invest in building the jihadist generation to liberate Jerusalem and to unite the blood of the Ummah with the blood of the people of Gaza, Jerusalem, and Palestine on the land of Palestine for its liberation and the liberation of Jerusalem?”
Statements by Hamas officials also make clear the terrorist organization’s disregard for the loss of civilian life not only in Israel but also in Gaza.
Hamas senior leader Khaled Mashal stated on October 19, 2023 that he views the current loss of civilian life in Gaza – brought about by Hamas' strategy of using human shields – as essential: “No nation is liberated without sacrifices... In all wars, there are some civilian victims. We are not responsible for them.”
Hamas senior leader Ismail Haniyeh, commenting on the loss of civilian life in Gaza on October 26, 2023: “The blood of the women, children and elderly […] we are the ones who need this blood, so it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit.”
The Hamas Charter:
Hamas’ extremism is rooted in ideologies that predate the establishment of Israel in 1948. The preamble to Hamas’ founding charter contains the following quote from the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hassan al-Banna:
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (Preamble to Hamas Charter).
The Hamas Charter specifically dates Hamas’ ideological roots to well before the establishment of Israel and sees itself as part of a “chain of the struggle” against not only the state of Israel but also Jews (who they term “Zionists”) who lived there before it became Israel in 1948.
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz ad-Din al-Qassam and his brethren the fighters [and] members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after. (Hamas Charter, Article 7).
Izz ad-Din al-Qassam was a Syrian cleric who formed the Black Hand, an early Islamist group that terrorized and murdered Jews in Mandate Palestine in the 1930s. The Hamas brigades that committed the atrocities of October 7, as well as the rockets Hamas fires at civilian population centers in Israel, are both named after him.
Hamas sees the territory of Israel as exclusive to all the world’s Muslims (not just Palestinians), forbids a Jewish state on “any part” of the land and promotes the idea that it is the “duty for every Muslim” to reverse Israel’s existence:
The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [holy possession] consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part or abandon it or any part of it. (Hamas Charter, Article 11).
Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Muslim wherever he may be. (Hamas Charter, Article 13).
In its founding charter, Hamas cites a particularly violent hadith as proof that Muslims need to fight and kill Jews:
The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews. (Hamas Charter, Article 7).
Peace is not an option for Hamas, only violence:
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. (Hamas Charter, Article 13).
Still waiting for the text, JKR.
Show me the words.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170510123932/http://hamas.ps/en/post/678/
Palestine is an Arab Islamic land.
[Denying that Jews have a place in Israel is antisemitic.]
…
Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. It provides an umbrella for the followers of other creeds and religions.
[Demanding that Jewish Israelis must eventually live under the “umbrella” of Islam is antisemitic.]
…
Not one stone of Jerusalem can be surrendered or relinquished.
[Demanding that Islam control all of Jerusalem is antisemitic]
…
The measures undertaken by the occupiers in Jerusalem, such as Judaization, settlement building, and establishing facts on the ground are fundamentally null and void.
[The threat to eliminate the Jewishness of Jerusalem is antisemitic.]
…
The occupation’s plots, measures and attempts to judaize Al-Aqsa and divide it are null, void and illegitimate.
[Claiming Jews have “judaized” Al-Aqsa is antisemitic. The Jewish temple below Al-Aqsa was build two millennia before Al-Aqsa. The claim that Jews will destroy Al-Aqsa is an old antisemitic trope that’s been used by antisemites for over a century. The denial of the Western Wall as legitimately being a holy place for Jews is antisemitic.]
…
Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, Judaization or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate.
[Saying the Jewish aspects of Israel are illegitimate is antisemitic.]
…
The liberation of Palestine is the duty of the Palestinian people in particular and the duty of the Arab and Islamic Ummah in general.
[Saying Arabs and Muslims must liberate Israel from Israelis and Jews is antisemitic.]
No, JKR.
They are saying it is Palestinian land, and that it is being stolen. There is nothing in there discriminatory towards Jews.
No, 6079_Smith_W.
They'te saying they want to establish a Muslim caliphate from the river to the sea and make Jews second class citizens if they don't kill them first. Very antisemitic.
They'te saying they want to establish a Muslim caliphate from the river to the sea and make Jews second class citizens if they don't kill them first. Very antisemitic.
You just made that up.
None of that is in their charter.
Look it up. It is,
No, I am not going on some fucking snipe hunt for something that is not there.
If you claim they are in the document you posted, show me the words.
It's very easy. Google "Hamas Charter."
Here’s what comes up on Google for “Hamas Charter”:
https://embassies.gov.il/NEW-YORK/ABOUTISRAEL/Pages/Hamas-Covenant.aspx#
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant...
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas
https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2307/2538093
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words
https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/hamas-words-and-deeds
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Hamas_charter
https://embassies.gov.il/hague-en/aboutisrael/themiddleeast/Pages/Hamas-...
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hamas
https://forward.com/opinion/564190/hamas-charter-truth/?amp=1
https://newhouse.house.gov/media/weekly-columns-and-op-eds/hamas-israel-...
No JKR. I am not falling for that. There is only one document I am interested in and it is the one I mentioned. You make this claim about their current charter (which is what we are talking about):
They'te saying they want to establish a Muslim caliphate from the river to the sea and make Jews second class citizens if they don't kill them first. Very antisemitic.
You show me the words. You can't because they are not there, and you are lying. I know they are not there because I did read it some time ago (and a number of times).
To reel you back in from this dumb tangent, that is why I said the Hamas Charter does not confuse racism with political criticism in the way the IHRA definition does.
My point isn't about other things some Hamas leader might have said. It isn't about their old charter. It isn't about whether they might be lying. My point is that unlike the IHRA (and unlike you) they managed to not confuse racism and political criticism in that document.
That is what I am talking about.
That was the old Hamas. The new Hamas are more friendly and open to collaboration.
I am just asking for words on paper. Same as we are talking about with the IHRA definition that JKR claims is just fine while he says the Hamas Charter is full of antisemitism. .
No answer JKR gives you can be correct because you're convinced you're right. Because you're always right. You lack the humility to ever admit to being wrong. When YOU posted numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry showing more men then women have been killed in our lovely "mostly women and children" debate instead of you acknowledging the numbers you tried to hide behind an out of the blue "mens rights" boogyman. Then some silly "you're not counting people under the rubble", because it's only women and children under the rubbleapparently. You don't debate in good faith.
Actually those numbers show a majority of "women and children" just as the news reports say, and they don't include many deaths like those due to starvation and disease, and those missing. I dropped the conversation because clearly you are ignoring those points. As I said, there was no point.
Did I say anything about only women and children being under the rubble? No I did not.
On this point, which also includes JKR making this claim:
<p>Anyone reading the Hamas Charter knows that some criticism of Israel can be very antisemitic.
He still hasn't come up with any evidence to back up his claim. What criticism of the state is antisemitic? You are welcome to help him if you want.
6079_Smith_W wrote:
No JKR. I am not falling for that. There is only one document I am interested in and it is the one I mentioned. You make this claim about their current charter (which is what we are talking about):
They'te saying they want to establish a Muslim caliphate from the river to the sea and make Jews second class citizens if they don't kill them first. Very antisemitic.
You show me the words. You can't because they are not there, and you are lying. I know they are not there because I did read it some time ago (and a number of times).
To reel you back in from this dumb tangent, that is why I said the Hamas Charter does not confuse racism with political criticism in the way the IHRA definition does.
My point isn't about other things some Hamas leader might have said. It isn't about their old charter. It isn't about whether they might be lying. My point is that unlike the IHRA (and unlike you) they managed to not confuse racism and political criticism in that document.
That is what I am talking about.
End of quote.
————
————
There are two documents that Hamas supports:
1. Hamas Covenant 1988; The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement
2. A Document of General Principles and Policies of 2017
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
https://web.archive.org/web/20170510123932/http://hamas.ps/en/post/678/
I’ve shown you words from both of these documents that are antisemitic.
When I mention Hamas’s Charter I’m referring to the document that established Hamas in 1988. The document from 2017 is just their “general principles” which I also find to be antisemitic although much less so than their Covenant.
Hamas stands by both of their documents. The one written in 1988 is much more antisemitic than the one written in 2017 but both are antisemitic. I’ve shown you quotes from both of them that are antisemitic.
Here are examples of antisemitism I perceive in Hamas’s “General Principles”:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170510123932/http://hamas.ps/en/post/678/
Palestine is an Arab Islamic land.
[Denying that Jews have an equal place in the area of present day Israel with Muslims is antisemitic.]
…
Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. It provides an umbrella for the followers of other creeds and religions.
[Demanding that Jewish Israelis live under the “umbrella” of Islam is antisemitic.]
…
Not one stone of Jerusalem can be surrendered or relinquished.
[Demanding that Islam control all of Jerusalem is antisemitic]
…
The measures undertaken by the occupiers in Jerusalem, such as Judaization, settlement building, and establishing facts on the ground are fundamentally null and void.
[The threat to eliminate the Jewishness of Jerusalem is antisemitic.]
…
The occupation’s plots, measures and attempts to judaize Al-Aqsa and divide it are null, void and illegitimate.
[Claiming Jews have “judaized” Al-Aqsa is antisemitic. The Jewish temple below Al-Aqsa was build two millennia before Al-Aqsa. The claim that Jews will destroy Al-Aqsa is an old antisemitic trope that’s been used by antisemites for over a century. The denial of the Western Wall as legitimately being a holy place for Jews is antisemitic.]
…
Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, Judaization or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate.
[Saying the Jewish aspects of Israel are illegitimate is antisemitic.]
…
The liberation of Palestine is the duty of the Palestinian people in particular and the duty of the Arab and Islamic Ummah in general.
[Saying Arabs and Muslims must liberate Israel from Israelis and Jews is antisemitic.]
<p>Anyone reading the Hamas Charter knows that some criticism of Israel can be very antisemitic.He still hasn't come up with any evidence to back up his claim. What criticism of the state is antisemitic?
When I refer to Hamas’s Charter I’m referring to Hamas Covenant of 1988 called “The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement” not Hamas’s 2017 document called “A Document of General Principles and Policies.” Both of these documents are still official Hamas documents. Hamas hasn’t said anything negative about the originating document. They stand by it. To their people they still proudly hold it as their founding document.
For greater clarity we can refer to the founding document as “Hamas’s Covenant” and the document about general principles as “A Document of General Principles.” I think it should be obvious that legally a “covenant” supersedes “general principles.”
Go back and read what I said at #38, JKR. I was quite clear:
And to be honest, the new Hamas Charter does a far better job of separating the state from the culture than the IHRA definition does.
How about you pull an example from the current charter that you consider specifically antisemitic, rather than a criticism of Israel and Zionism.
You might want to invite me down a semantic rabbit hole about not recognizing the new charter, but it is irrelevant to my point, which is that the new charter does not confuse racism with political criticism the way the IHRA document does.
To your claim though, I would offer this:
Hamas has already broken its old charter, and as early as 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal said the 1988 charter was "a piece of history and no longer relevant".
And Hamas dropped calls for the destruction of Israel from its election manifesto in 2006.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/1988_Hamas_charter
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20141011-forget-its-charter-hamas-has-...
So no, they have explicitly said they do not stand by it.
But again, irrelevant to my point, which was about the wording of the new charter.
6079_Smith_W wrote:
How about you pull an example from the current charter that you consider specifically antisemitic, rather than a criticism of Israel and Zionism.
End of quote.
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Hamas has never repudiated their 1998 Covenant so I and many others see it as being their vision statement including many Palestinians.
As for their 2017 “General principles and policies” document, I see antisemitism there too including:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170510123932/http://hamas.ps/en/post/678/
Palestine is an Arab Islamic land.
[Denying that Jews have an equal place in the area of present day Israel with Muslims is antisemitic.]
…
Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. It provides an umbrella for the followers of other creeds and religions.
[Demanding that Jewish Israelis live under the “umbrella” of Islam is antisemitic.]
…
Not one stone of Jerusalem can be surrendered or relinquished.
[Demanding that Islam control all of Jerusalem is antisemitic]
…
The measures undertaken by the occupiers in Jerusalem, such as Judaization, settlement building, and establishing facts on the ground are fundamentally null and void.
[The threat to eliminate the Jewishness of Jerusalem is antisemitic.]
…
The occupation’s plots, measures and attempts to judaize Al-Aqsa and divide it are null, void and illegitimate.
[Claiming Jews have “judaized” Al-Aqsa is antisemitic. The Jewish temple below Al-Aqsa was build two millennia before Al-Aqsa. The claim that Jews will destroy Al-Aqsa is an old antisemitic trope that’s been used by antisemites for over a century. The denial of the Western Wall as legitimately being a holy place for Jews is antisemitic.]
…
Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, Judaization or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate.
[Saying the Jewish aspects of Israel are illegitimate is antisemitic.]
…
The liberation of Palestine is the duty of the Palestinian people in particular and the duty of the Arab and Islamic Ummah in general.
[Saying Arabs and Muslims must liberate Israel from Israelis and Jews is antisemitic.]
I would consider claims that Hamas is not antisemitic if they completely repudiated their 1988 Covenant and completely repudiated the antisemitism they have supported till this very day.
Those clauses aren't about "Jews". All of them refer to government actions - occupiers violating Islamic and Palestinian sites and turning them into Jewish sites, as well as building settlements. It is about government policy.
And these aren't tropes. They are actions made with the support of Israeli police and the army.
https://www.alhaq.org/monitoring-documentation/6922.html
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/04/israel-un-expert-condemn...
Nor is this:
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israels-plan-to-restrict-palestinia...
Not long ago I posted footage of a Palestinian activist who had his home bulldozed in an East Jerusalem neighbourhood as part of a plan to build a "City of David" theme park.
And you think this is discrimination against Jews?
https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/07/silwan-ethnic-cleansing-theme-park
6079_Smith_W:
Those clauses aren't about "Jews". All of them refer to government actions - occupiers violating Islamic and Palestinian sites and turning them into Jewish sites, as well as building settlements. It is about government policy.
End of quote.
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Let’s go over the clauses I mentioned one by one. The first one I mentioned was:
“Palestine is an Arab Islamic land”
I see this as denying that Jews have an equal place in the area of present day Israel with Arabs and Muslims. I see this as being antisemitic especially in light of what Hamas wrote in their 1988 Covenant.
I would consider claims that Hamas is not antisemitic if they completely repudiated their 1988 Covenant and completely repudiated the antisemitism they have supported till this very day.
Despite the fact Hamas has deviated from their original charter, and have said it is no longer relevant, they have already said it remains as a historical document because of internal pressures.
Your bar is unreasonably, and I would say dishonestly high. You want Hamas to completely remove it? Then amend the Israeli constitution and repeal its racist laws - laws which unlike the Hamas 1988 charter, are still actively used.
And it is kind of funny, considering Netanyahu is still citing genocidal texts from scripture to justify their current genocide.
https://www.islamicity.org/92255/scripture-to-slaughter-netanyahus-holy-...
We know they won't be repealing that document anytime soon.
And we also know that there are many religious people - Jewish and Christian - who oppose the Zionist occupation but still recognize those documents as historical artifacts, despite their genocidal content.
“Palestine is an Arab Islamic land”I see this as denying that Jews have an equal place in the area of present day Israel with Arabs and Muslims. I see this as being antisemitic especially in light of what Hamas wrote in their 1988 Covenant.
Saying Turtle Island is Indigenous land is not racist against settlers. And it isn't discriminatory in this case either.
Your use of that Zionist argument is a front to excuse land theft - just like your claim that "the land belongs to everyone who lives on it".
No it doesn't. People have been forcibly removed from their land by a series of occupations, and finally by genocide. Thieves never become owners.
The statement that Palestine is an Arab Islamic land is perfectly understandable considering how many of those occupying their lands have come from other parts of the world and have no real roots in Palestine.
And because Muslims do not have the same right of return that Israel has entrenched in its racist constitution.
And denying Jews an equal place? Hamas has already said it would respect the 1967 line.
Saying Palestine/Israel is Arab/Muslim is antisemitic and anti Christian and untrue. Palestine/Israel is the land of Arabs, Muslims, Israelis, Palestinians, Jews, and Christian, and many other peoples.
And denying Jews an equal place? Hamas has already said it would respect the 1967 line.
Hamas has said they reserve the right to oppose Israel’s existence indefinitely with any means available. Their actions on October 7 showed the world who they are.
6079_Smith_W wrote:
The statement that Palestine is an Arab Islamic land is perfectly understandable considering how many of those occupying their lands have come from other parts of the world and have no real roots in Palestine.
End of quote.
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Jews have been a part of the land there for over 3,000 years. Before Islam was established. Hebrew was a language there before Arabic. Jews have always lived near or in Jerusalem.
Saying Palestine/Israel is Arab/Muslim is antisemitic and anti Christian and untrue. Palestine/Israel is the land of Arabs, Muslims, Israelis, Palestinians, Jews, and Christian, and many other peoples.
So kumbaya again.
I guess that's why Palestinian Christians are all siding with Israel about this outrage, right?
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-assaults-against-christians...
Oh FFS, JKR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)
Muslims have been the majority there since 1200.
And besides, Zionism isn't about the people who were there; its goal was a European colony.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2012/12/24/zionism-anti-semitism-and-...
6079_Smith_W:
Oh FFS, JKR.
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Oh FFS, 6079_Smith_W. Defending Hamas makes no sense.
6079_Smith_W wrote:
Zionism isn't about the people who were there; its goal was a European colony.
————
Zionism’s goal was to establish a safe haven for Jews from around the world and to support Judaism within the Jewish holy land.
I am not defending Hamas. That is Netanyahu's job. I just finished saying it is a question how much they can be trusted.
But they don't confuse political criticism with racism. That is also part of the Zionist strategy, if you read that Al Jazeera article.
Zionism’s goal was to establish a safe haven for Jews from around the world and to support Judaism within the Jewish holy land.
Some comments from David Ben Gurion, and Theodore Herzl, from his book The Jewish State:
"We are duty bound to fight against the spirit of the Levant".
They were European colonizers JKR, and they didn't see the Jews who lived there originally as any better than the other indigenous people.
I am not defending Hamas. That is Netanyahu's job. I just finished saying it is a question how much they can be trusted.
But they don't confuse political criticism with racism. That is also part of the Zionist strategy, if you read that Al Jazeera article.
Hamas showed the world on October 7 who they are.
6079_Smith_W wrote:
Some comments from David Ben Gurion, and Theodore Herzl, from his book The Jewish State:
"We are duty bound to fight against the spirit of the Levant".
They were European colonizers JKR, and they didn't see the Jews who lived there originally as any better than the other indigenous people.
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During the British Mandate Jews living in the British Mandate offered to negotiate with Arabs. Jews accepted all the partition plans offered. They were also willing to negotiate changes to the partition plans. A one state solution was also discussed by Jews and would have been acceptable to the Jews of the British Mandate if it insured peace.
Sure, JKR. That has absolutely nothing to do with the point that the Zionists did not see the Jewish communities there as one with them. Israel's first president saw them as no better than the Arab communities there, and something they wanted no part of.
So this wasn't about anyone's homeland anymore than if I went over to Wales and tried to kick someone out of their house. And I'm only 150 years removed, not 1800.
Are you going to just keep firing off responses that have nothing to do with what I am saying?
6079_Smith_W wrote:
Some comments from David Ben Gurion, and Theodore Herzl, from his book The Jewish State:
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6079_Smith_W wrote:
Are you going to just keep firing off responses that have nothing to do with what I am saying?
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The quotes you provided are out of context anti-Zionist propaganda aimed at demonizing Zionism and Zionists. Most Jews view Zionism and Zionists very differently than you do. Most Jews have a better understanding of Zionist leaders and Zionism than people who oppose Zionism. Herzl died in the very early part of the 20th Century long before WW1. Herzl‘s book “The Jewish State” was published when Ben-Gurion was still a child. Ben-Gurion was too young to have participated in Herzl’s book “The Jewish State.”
You read what Ben Gurion said, right? The only takeaway from the fact that those two said these things half a century apart is that it is not an anomaly, and Zionism is a consistently colonialist and racist venture.
It has nothing to do with the land belonging to everyone who lives there, because their goal all along was to get rid of the original occupants and take over. Including those who were Jewish.
Your history contradicts historical facts. The historic fact remains that Jewish leaders in the British Mandate were willing to negotiate with Arab leaders and British leaders. The Jewish leaders were willing to compromise with Arab leaders and British leaders in order to establish a fair mutually beneficial relationship. The Jewish leaders in the British Mandate accepted numerous partition plans that included only a small part of the British Mandate. The Jewish leaders were willing to establish a homeland in a very small area within the British Mandate. Jewish leaders were also willing to negotiate with Arab leaders over the different partition plans including the UN Partition Plan. Jewish leaders and Jews in the British Mandate accepted living with Arabs and were opposed to anyone being forced to move from where they lived. There would have been no refugee problem, both Arab and Jewish, if Arabs hadn't attacked Israel. There would have been no Jewish refugees from the areas that Arabs controlled and there would have been no Palestinian refugees from the areas Israel controlled if Arab countries and Arabs hadn't attacked Israel.
Whilst holding their noses.
You read what they had to say, and who they were really doing it for.
Not the people who were there already. Not any of them.
Herzl didn't cause the establishment of the State of Israel. Ben-Gurion didn't cause the establishment of the State of Israel. The UN established the State of Israel. Israel would not have been established had not the UN established Israel. During the British Mandate Zionists didn’t force Arabs to attack Jews. Arabs and Jews both became refugees in 1948 because of the 1948 War. Arabs and Arab countries did not have to go to war against Israel. Without the War of 1948, there would have been no refugees, Arabs or Jews. Zionists didn't force the UN to create the State of Israel. The War of 1948 created the refugee problem, not Zionists. Zionists didn’t force Arabs and Arab nations to go to war against Israel. In 1948 if Arabs and Arab countries had accepted Israel's right to exist in peace and for Jews to exist in peace in areas controlled by Jordan and Egypt, the Arab refugees could have returned to Israel and the Jewish refugees could have returned to the areas controlled by Jordan and Egypt.
Herzl didn't establish the State of Israel. Ben-Gurion didn't establish the State of Israel.
Oh.
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel
6079_Smith_W, you obviously know the difference between “proclaiming” and “establishing.” Your links themselves show that the UN created the State of Israel and that Ben-Gurion then proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. Ben-Gurion didn't force the UN to establish the State of Israel. If the UN had voted against establishing the State of Israel, Israel would not have been created. In fact, many at time thought the UN might not establish the State of Israel.
