The role of organized religion today: beyond opiates?

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radiorahim radiorahim's picture

 

The entire quote (courtesy of Wikipedia)

Quote:

Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

So from my reading, Marx basically said that religion (at least in the 19th century) was a drug that helped ordinary folks cope with the pain of an awful world of exploitation.    Rid the world of exploitation and you rid the world of the need for religion.

Like many things, I think over the last century and a half Marx has been taken out of context...both by the right (all you godless communists!) and by Stalinists and neo-Stalinists (rid yourselves of your stupid superstitions or else we'll lock you up in the gulag).

It's not so cut and dried.   There are those who use religion as a tool of oppression and those who use it as a tool for liberation.

For example in Guatemala, as more and more Catholic clergy at the "base" level began converting to "liberation theology", the fascist generals began promoting the right-wing conservative Evangelical churches...even making one of them (General Ephraim Rios Mont) the president.

In El Salvador during the 1980's it was common to see right-wing death squad graffitti spray painted on buildings that said "Be a patriot.  Kill a Priest".

Many of the folks involved in "Checkpoint Watch", the Israel-based organization that assists Palestinians with hassles at the checkpoints between the West Bank and Israel...are folks from the World Council of Churches.

So I think the real thing to look at is whether a religious organizations politics are progressive or reactionary and not to totally condemn all forms of religion as inherently reactionary.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

deleted accidental duplicate post

 

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

deleted accidental triplicate post...gee am I messed up tonight!

 

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

The thing about religion is it removes all critical thinking.  There's a reason I had to leave too.  I don't think there was anything sexual but there was violence for dissenting.  I have a hard time going into the memory bank about it.  It's strange, I have a hard time recalling stuff from back then.  I just knew it was wrong.  Luckily, even the violence and disappointment from my parents didn't deter me from getting away.  Luckily, my folks get it now and I wasn't ostracized.  Get away people, you're complicit.  It's like funding terrorism.

And I think VGE's wrong too.  They were creating a terrible, judgemental person in me.  If I lose everything I have, it will be because I will not be that person.  Lost 1 job already because of that years back when I was in management and they were using me to go after the union. 

 

No, human beings are born good, caring and confident.  Society tries to break it down.  Stay strong.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Nope, it should be done away with.  People should care about each other regardless of their need for "forgiveness".

 

What a silly trope they sell.  Want some snake-oil?

6079_Smith_W

radiorahim wrote:

So I think the real thing to look at is whether a religious organizations politics are progressive or reactionary and not to totally condemn all forms of religion as inherently reactionary.

Well you have to look even further than church structure and dogma to the membership. Every religious organization has progressive members and movements, even the bad old Catholics. I doubt that any two people sitting in the same church have exactly the same understanding of their faith, values and relationship with god or whatever.

Actually the only thing you're going to settle with this discussion is how each of you feel about it;  there is no consensus to be reached. You're all right - as in you all know what's right for yourselves.

The question of whether religion is right or wrong, good or bad is ridiculous, in my opinion. It exists, and I think it always will exist in some form. I think all we can do is deal with it, and (from my perspective) support those who want to reform it.

 

(edit)

and that notion about people bing inherently good or evil? Not all religions, not even all christian religions believe in that dogma.

 

 

Unionist

Stargazer wrote:

Name me ONE organized religion that doesn't treat women like shit. One. So the Anglican church is all women pastors. So fucking what? That does not prove even remotely that churches are not beacons of condoned and enforced sexism.

Now now Stargazer, the Anglican men are seriously thinking about giving women a few rights:

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/10565357.stm]Church of England general synod debates women bishops[/url]

Of course, God wouldn't want us to forget the human rights of men who can't in good conscience accept women in authority:

Quote:
The general synod will discuss plans aimed at giving traditionalists enough exemptions from serving under a woman.

And it's instructive to note that women-haters are men of principle, who will not hesitate, in the pursuit of their glorious cause, to tell the entire Church to go f*ck itself:

Quote:
Some of the traditionalists have threatened to convert to Roman Catholicism over the issue.

One wonders why the progressive pro-women types don't likewise tell the Church to go f*ck itself?

Quote:
There is widespread sympathy for traditionalists on the Catholic wing of the Church who say they could not serve under women, in part, because Jesus chose only men to be his apostles and to lead the early Church.

Sounds pretty persuasive to me.

By the way, the story above is datelined 2010.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Fucking wicked posts!

Cueball Cueball's picture

radiorahim wrote:

So from my reading, Marx basically said that religion (at least in the 19th century) was a drug that helped ordinary folks cope with the pain of an awful world of exploitation.    Rid the world of exploitation and you rid the world of the need for religion.

More preciesly, what they (Marx and Engles) proposed was that mythology was part of human desire to explain the world, and that it will disappear as part of a natural process, once people take control of the material facts of their lives. From Anti-Duhring by Engels:

Quote:
All religion, however, is nothing but the fantastic reflection in men's minds of those external forces which control their daily life, a reflection in which the terrestrial forces assume the form of supernatural forces. In the beginnings of history it was the forces of nature which were first so reflected, and which in the course of further evolution underwent the most manifold and varied personifications among the various peoples. This early process has been traced back by comparative mythology, at least in the case of the Indo-European peoples, to its origin in the Indian Vedas, and in its further evolution it has been demonstrated in detail among the Indians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Germans and, so far as material is available, also among the Celts, Lithuanians and Slavs. But it is not long before, side by side with the forces of nature, social forces begin to be active - forces which confront man as equally alien and at first equally inexplicable, dominating him with the same apparent natural necessity as the forces of nature themselves. The fantastic figures, which at first only reflected the mysterious forces of nature, at this point acquire social attributes, become representatives of the forces of history.

State, Family, Education

Indeed Engels quite clearly expressed the idea that Christian teaching was an predecessor to socialist "humanism" by asserting that the concept of "original sin" was the first "equality". All people are born equally as sinners more or less, regardless of social station. One can even see this theme expressed in the opening lines of the US constitution: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, all men are created equal..."

Quote:
Christianity knew only one point in which all men were equal: that all were equally born in original sin - which corresponded perfectly to its character as the religion of the slaves and the oppressed. Apart from this it recognized, at most, the equality of the elect, which however was only stressed at the very beginning. The traces of community of goods which are also found in the early stages of the new religion can be ascribed to solidarity among the proscribed rather than to real equalitarian ideas. Within a very short time the establishment of the distinction between priests and laymen put an end even to this incipient Christian equality.

Morality and Law. Equality

But I am digressing a bit. If one reads the through the complete section on "State, Family and Education" in "Anti-Durhing" we can see that their idea was much deeper than simply talking about religion as the opiate of the people, but about the replacement of the need for mythology because of ascendancy of scientific materialism as a basis for human understanding of the world. Religion would not disappear because "suffering" would be abolished, but because religion and mythology would be unnecessary in a world where people had direct control over the material circumstances of their own lives. Once this control over the material circumstance of their own lives (the means of production essentially) was achieved there would no longer be a need for mythology, since people would be masters of their own destiny.

Quote:
What is above all necessary for this, is a social act. And when this act has been accomplished, when society, by taking possession of all means of production and using them on a planned basis, has freed itself and all its members from the bondage in which they are now held by these means of production which they themselves have produced but which confront them as an irresistible alien force, when therefore man no longer merely proposes, but also disposes - only then will the last alien force which is still reflected in religion vanish; and with it will also vanish the religious reflection itself, for the simple reason that then there will be nothing left to reflect.

State, Family, Education

Then of course, Engels soundly rejects the need for direct struggle against religion, because:

Quote:
Herr Dühring, however, cannot wait until religion dies this, its natural, death. He proceeds in more deep-rooted fashion. He out-Bismarcks Bismarck; he decrees sharper May laws [127] not merely against Catholicism, but against all religion whatsoever; he incites his gendarmes of the future against religion, and thereby helps it to martyrdom and a prolonged lease of life.

I agree with that last assessment by the way. As it has been said, the problem with the word "athiest" is that 6 out of 7 of its letters spell "thiest".

Cueball Cueball's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

and that notion about people bing inherently good or evil? Not all religions, not even all christian religions believe in that dogma.

Actually, Islamic thought differs from Christianity in one very interesting detail. Christianity professes that all people are born sinners, whereas Islam asserts that all person are born pure.

6079_Smith_W

Cueball wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

and that notion about people bing inherently good or evil? Not all religions, not even all christian religions believe in that dogma.

Actually, Islamic thought differs from Christianity in one very interesting detail. Christianity professes that all people are born sinners, whereas Islam asserts that all person are born pure.

Actually the notion of soul love being at the centre of belief only came into mainstream european christian culture through the muslim and jewish philosophers in spain, and it grew into Catharism.  You may know how the Catholics dealt with them. I am sure the Catholics felt they had to wipe them all out; in the 1200s the catholics controlled the monarchs and all things to do with power, but they did not have a solid grip on the general public yet.

Stargazer

Thanks for that unionist. I see they are trying hard to win the war. Yell Looks like they lost. Caissa needs to rethink his position.

Caissa

Stargazer asked: Caissa, tell me, what does the church you speak of teach? Does it teach women are equals? Just because women are pasters does not mean they are treated as equals.

 

To which Caissa replied: I can't imagine her teaching anything else. The Anglican church is not a monolith.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Caissa

Self-portrait?

Unionist

Cueball wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

and that notion about people bing inherently good or evil? Not all religions, not even all christian religions believe in that dogma.

Actually, Islamic thought differs from Christianity in one very interesting detail. Christianity professes that all people are born sinners, whereas Islam asserts that all person are born pure.

Just goes to show that once you've departed from reality, you can make up any nonsensical fairy tale that you like.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Caissa wrote:

Self-portrait?

Actually, before the babble renovation it was my profile picture. It's a picture of a guy going into a monolith.

Anyway, this whole thread is off topic because Lafontaine hasn't read a enough Marx and Engels to understand what he is talking about. Engels pretty much states that he believes the roots of socialist humanism are based in Christian ideology, which Engels views as a religious manifestation of a slave revolt against tyrrany. Lafontaine is going off about something in Marx that he didn't get.

Quote:
Christianity knew only one point in which all men were equal: that all were equally born in original sin - which corresponded perfectly to its character as the religion of the slaves and the oppressed. Apart from this it recognised, at most, the equality of the elect, which however was only stressed at the very beginning. The traces of community of goods which are also found in the early stages of the new religion can be ascribed to solidarity among the proscribed rather than to real equalitarian ideas. Within a very short time the establishment of the distinction between priests and laymen put an end even to this incipient Christian equality. - The overrunning of Western Europe by the Germans abolished for centuries all ideas of equality, through the gradual building up of such a complicated social and political hierarchy as had never existed before. But at the same time the invasion drew Western and Central Europe into the course of historical development, created for the first time a compact cultural area, and within this area also for the first time a system of predominantly national states exerting mutual influence on each other and mutually holding each other in check. Thereby it prepared the ground on which alone the question of the equal status of men, of the rights of man, could at a later period be raised.

Predictably, we see, Engels establishes Christianity and other religions as part of a historical materialist dialectic.

The quote, "religion is the opiate of the masses" is a quotable quote, decontexualized and bandied about in coffee shops and on the internet by undergrads, just like "dictatorship of the proletariate" and a few other old standards that people make much of but don't really amount to much. Sadly, we can see that Lafontaine is a politician who likes sound bytes and is good at talking off the cuff about stuff he doesn't know anything about.

To me it seems like he is waxing nostalgic for the days when Germany had a more unified cultural hegemony based in common "values" (asserted by the common bonds of religion and language) that laid the basis for a set of unifying social relations that could be mistaken for something that Marx called "class consciousness".

But that is a digression, the main point made by Marx and Engels was the religion should be ignored, and we should move on to other things... for example, the coming crack down on civil liberties...

kropotkin1951

Oscar Romero is the tale of a good man within the institution.  Until he was made Bishop he was a good administrator of the catholic church who was apolitical.  He actually believed he should look after his flock so he began to oppose the murderous elite that controlled his country. He was murdered in his church for defending the poor. 

I maintain though that his assassination was the fault of the catholic authorities who appointed him.  They obviously misjudged his character and thought he would be typical a bishop who preferred the company of the rich and powerful otherwise he would never have been appointed.  

I was looking at sites on this issue and found this interesting discussion of liberation theology on a US catholic website. I found the discussion rather bizarre but instructive as to how you can talk about a whole movement without really being forthright about its fundamental tenets.

http://uscatholic.org/video/5-questions-michael-lee-liberation-theology

 

 

6079_Smith_W

Unionist wrote:

Just goes to show that once you've departed from reality, you can make up any nonsensical fairy tale that you like.

I hear what you are saying, and agree about some religious people rationalizing and believing whatever they want (even though we are discussing real historical events and beliefs).

On the other hand, religions may be partially built on myth, but they are very real organizations with very real and world-wide power. We ignore that at our peril.

If there was a logical argument that would make them magically disappear I am sure someone would have found it by now.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Good grief:  Man Church

 

 

(not sure where to place this, move it if you must)

6079_Smith_W

Boom Boom wrote:

Good grief:  Man Church

 

 

(not sure where to place this, move it if you must)

Wow. I don't know if someobody hacked their site, but that link is dead. If it weren't for this newspaper article I would think for sure this is some kind of joke

http://www.the-peoples-forum.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=14465&Disp=1...

Here they are on facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Chandler-AZ/Man-Church/195805134438

Sounds like promisekeepers for the Homer Simpson set.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Wow. I don't know if someobody hacked their site, but that link is dead. If it weren't for this newspaper article I would think for sure this is some kind of joke

 

I just tried my link, worked fine. Try this one: http://cschandler.com/manchurch

From the webpage:

Man Church is church the way a man expects it to be done. No singing, short sermon, time to talk with other guys, no women present, and coffee and donuts. That's the way men want to do church. The topics of discussion will have a definite manly focus - being the best possible husband, father, employee, leader - being a real man. In fact, every aspect of Man Church is geared for men - not like any other church you have seen. This ain't your mama's church! Surprised

6079_Smith_W

Hilarious - geared for men, unlike any other church we have seen.

That mama's church sounds interesting though.

I'm still not 100% convinced this is not a joke.

integrity

IF YOU WERE COMING FROM -KNOWINGNESS - THIS DISCUSSION WOULD NOT EVEN BE TAKING PLACE.  YOU WOULD SIMPLY 'KNOW'.  PURE AND SIMPLE.  THE SO-CALLED DIALOGUE IS A TEACHABLE MOMENT: YOU DON'T KNOW!  OTHERWISE THE DISCUSSION WOULD BE VERY DIFFERENT.  YOU ARE INTO YOUR HEADS AND APPEAR TO HAVE LITTLE EXPERIENCE OF WHAT IS SO-CALLED "GOD".  THE DISCUSSION IS VERY TELLING AND VERY MENTAL.  MAY YOU KNOW A WHOLE LOT MORE THAN IS EVIDENCED IN THIS "DIALOGUE".

Cueball Cueball's picture

I guess bold caps is as close to godliness as you can get on the internet.

6079_Smith_W

@ Integrity

If you have something to contribute along that line I'm listening.

j.m.

Boom Boom wrote:

The head of Opus Dei in Canada was on CBC's P&P  the other day (Friday, I think) defending himself (with the help of Ezra Levant!) against insults hurled at him by the NDP's Pat Martin. Ezra called Martin a bigot, I believe. The Opus Dei head sends an invite to every MP every year (he's done this three years so far) to join him in a prayer and reflection dinner with himself giving a reflection. He says he avoids politics in his dinner reflection.

There's also a Prayer Breakfast in the Parliament Buildings, but I can't remember if it's daily, weekly, monthly, or a yearly thing. All parties are invited.

 

Boom Boom, do you have a linkd for this?

Jacob Richter
Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

j.m. wrote:
Boom Boom wrote:
There's also a Prayer Breakfast in the Parliament Buildings, but I can't remember if it's daily, weekly, monthly, or a yearly thing. All parties are invited.
  Boom Boom, do you have a linkd for this?

Here: History of the National Prayer Breakfast

excerpt: The National Prayer Breakfast is an annual ecumenical event, where men and women from differing backgrounds gather together with our elected public officials to pray in the spirit of Jesus Christ for Canada. The Prayer Breakfast has been faithfully attended since 1964

excerpt: Throughout the years the leadership has changed. In 1994 Bill Bussiere passed away and Jim Lee assumed the leadership of the Prayer Breakfast on a part time basis. Bill's wife Sandra also worked with Jim and Members of Parliament continued meeting weekly and holding the annual National Prayer Breakfasts. 

George Victor

The most excellent Sydney St. Jazz Trio (piano, guitar and drums) of the Waterloo First Unitarian church (located in Kitchener) was brought together by a woman minister who is a swinging figure herself in an embroidered white cassock...and she is up to swapping ideas from Marx as well as Hegel with you. People were being invited to the G20 protests by church members when I was last there. Must go again when the weather is also cool. Not much offered in the way of salvation...we are "products of our biosphere"...but the open minds are a treat.

RosaL

Cueball wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

and that notion about people bing inherently good or evil? Not all religions, not even all christian religions believe in that dogma.

Actually, Islamic thought differs from Christianity in one very interesting detail. Christianity professes that all people are born sinners, whereas Islam asserts that all person are born pure.

 

Some Christian traditions (not all: some believe we are "born pure") hold to something commonly called "original sin", which can be explained thusly: we are born into a world with all kinds of evils in it and these evils affect us. Basically, this belief affirms that evil comes from outside us, that it has a structural, historical, material dimension, i.e., it's not just a matter of making poor individual choices. 

I have often doubted whether there was anything or anyone that could be called "God" but I have never doubted original sin. 

George Victor

That sinning member of the species Homo sapiens couldn't just be, by any chance, one of Desmond Morris's "Naked Apes' who got screwed around by his/her parents and tribe?

Unionist

Jacob Richter

You've got the wrong word.  It's anti-theists, not atheists.

Slumberjack

Cardinal says Catholic Church is 200 Years Behind  Please.  Its wishful thinking to situate them that far ahead.  The good Cardinal however presents a compelling case example that in order to survive as an entity, whether the entity presents itself in dogmatic or living physical form, adaptation to changing environmental circumstances must occur.  If either form is incapable of adapting in competition with their respective surroundings, then it must gradually or suddenly die off depending on the situations encountered.

Jacob Richter

Compared to Deep South evangelism, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't have the business approach to its proselytization efforts.

jfb

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