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The role of organized religion today: beyond opiates?

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Tue, 2010-05-25 18:51

#1

Jacob Richter

The role of organized religion today: beyond opiates?

Discuss (I used Google Translate):

[url=http://www.welt.de/die-welt/politik/article7623882/Ich-bin-ein-leidensch..."I am a passionate mushroom picker"[/url]

"I have never put this question this way to myself for a simple reason. I am convinced that the socialist idea would not have come into existence without Christianity. Christianity is the religion of charity. The politically correct word for charity is solidarity. Karl Marx saw this somewhat differently. He called religion 'opiate for the masses.' That is what he calls it in his [I]Theses on Feuerbach[/I]. Religion at the time of Karl Marx played a different role than it does today. Today the question arises who in society is responsible for the promotion of values. Supermarkets cannot replace cathedrals." (Oskar Lafontaine)

Tue, 2010-05-25 22:52

#2

RosaL

I'm interested in this but it's late and I need to read the article before I comment. This is just to bump the thread up a bit! I'll be back tomorrow.

Wed, 2010-05-26 19:09

#3

Doug

I think that charity and solidarity are two quite different things even if some of the results may be the same.

Wed, 2010-05-26 19:18

#4

Fidel

In medieval England, the monks who ran the abbeys and monasteries administered the country's first social services. Needles to say that an insane king of England ended it all, because he wanted to marry more than one woman. The king and wealthy lords didn't mind confiscating Church-owned real estate for their own gain at the same time.

Wed, 2010-05-26 19:43

#5

N.Beltov

N.Beltov's picture

I like the free music lessons that come with joining a church choir. And the social aspect is significant. It's that political element - usually harmful - that's troublesome AFAIC.

Wed, 2010-05-26 19:58

#6

Slumberjack

It sounds indicative of the Western Christian view that places itself as the centre and origin of all knowledge. It's as if altruism didn't evolve until the guy depicted as a white dude sporting a beard came along and introduced those concepts.

Wed, 2010-05-26 20:04

#7

N.Beltov

N.Beltov's picture

Yea, well, Lafontaine has got his Marx wrong anyway. "[R]eligion as the opium of the people" is from Marx's Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right and not the Theses on Feuerbach. Lafontaine sounds like a Christian who knows s*it about Marx and thinks holding hands will smooth over all the Christian/Marxist differences. HTFG.

Wed, 2010-05-26 20:39

#8

Jacob Richter

Yes, someone pointed that reference error out to me on RL.

Wed, 2010-05-26 21:37

#9

Fidel

Michael Hudson wrote in his essay [url=http://michael-hudson.com/2010/05/neoliberal-economics-v-theology/]Relig... Conversion: from Theology to the Temple of Mammon[/url]:

Quote:
So what is inverted is not only the classical idea of free markets, but the economic core of early religion. Today, the Chicago Boys deem those most in need of salvation to be high finance, real estate and monopolies in their fighting to reverse the past seven centuries of classical economic reform since the Churchmen debated how to define a Just Price (socially necessary costs of production) for banks to charge back in the 13th century.

It seems largely about fund-raising, but isn’t that true of most religion nowadays? [...]

The problem with the Friedman Institute is that its economic doctrine rose to notoriety in the Pinochet period, the high tide of the Chicago Boys in Chile. Privatization of public enterprise, “freeing” markets from usury laws and promoting deregulation is the antithesis of nearly all religions, whose guiding purpose after all was to socialize their members and create a moral state.

Friedmanite monetarism has been characterized as a post-modern ideology which, like religion, has its own sacred cows and idols – and an Inquisition. In place of tithing of unbelievers as in Islam, we have the tax shift off the religion of finance capital onto labor standing outside its gates

There are obvious costs for borrowing of money to facilitate trade and commerce. But then charging anything above a certain level on borrowed money and credit becomes usury and predatory lending, and often with ulterior motives. All ancient societies condemned usury as major religions have. Capitalists are attacking and murdering Muslims today, and not just because usury is discouraged by Islam.

Wed, 2010-05-26 22:25

RosaL

Doug wrote:

I think that charity and solidarity are two quite different things even if some of the results may be the same.

Yes, I think so, too, at least as 'charity' is now understood. But I'm not sure the original concept was different. In any case, I would argue that Christianity is preeminently about solidarity.

Thu, 2010-05-27 11:52

sknguy II

Jacob Richter wrote:

"Today the question arises who in society is responsible for the promotion of values." (Oskar Lafontaine)

This is an attitude about itself that the Church has to come to terms with. It's been the source of much historical conflict. And I think it's a question the Church has been asking for hundreds of years, not just "Today".

Thu, 2010-05-27 12:55

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

ebodyknows's picture

I don't think the situation today can't be compared to what it was hundreds of years ago...Lafontaine is on to something there. I think a lot of religions loss comes from not wanting to have a centralized authority on values. Having no one institution responsible for dictating values is certainly valued by many Canadians I associate with...I think these same people are still interested in moral input and seek it out in a diversity of places. The results are wild, difficult to analyze and certainly makes our moral lives a bit of an adventure but for the less adventerous who prefer a bit more certainty a good strong established religion probably does offer some legitimate peace of mind and magic.

I think he's wrong about supermarkets though, they promote a particular kind of value and some foodies certainly look for a reflection of their personal values in the institutions that provide their foods.

As for the role of religion, it has always been more than opiates for the masses. It also serves as a convenient flag under which to stand united with other individuals and feel a sense of belonging. Particularly in a society where it's people don't necessarily share a long tradition of geographical proximity or even have much in common in the way of current daily lifestyle. A source of solidarity and charity? Sure. Membership also denotes a sign of respectability in certain circles....I might try to demonstrate respectibility or status by joining the catholic church or the church of the subgenius(depending on the intended audience). I've had someone light up with a smile and shake my hand when I told him I went to catholic school.

Fri, 2010-05-28 22:19

NDPP

The Religious Right and Harper

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/religious+right+Harper/3080786/story...

"Guess who came to dinner in Ottawa at Parliament's own restaurant to meet with some MP's? Well, as Le Devoir reported yesterday, it was Frederick Dolan, head of Opus Dei in Canada - an ultra conservative and influential Catholic organization..."

Jason Kenney's Hero

http://mostlywater.org/jason_kenneys_hero

"one of my heros of the twentieth century"

Fri, 2010-05-28 22:27

Jacob Richter

ebodyknows wrote:
I think he's wrong about supermarkets though, they promote a particular kind of value and some foodies certainly look for a reflection of their personal values in the institutions that provide their foods.

He was wrong to mention supermarkets instead of shopping malls.

Sun, 2010-05-30 22:17

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

ebodyknows's picture

Why can't shopping malls fullfil the religon void?

Sun, 2010-05-30 22:52

Boom Boom

Boom Boom's picture

The head of Opus Dei in Canada was on CBC's P&P the other day (Friday, I think) defending himself (with the help of Ezra Levant!) against insults hurled at him by the NDP's Pat Martin. Ezra called Martin a bigot, I believe. The Opus Dei head sends an invite to every MP every year (he's done this three years so far) to join him in a prayer and reflection dinner with himself giving a reflection. He says he avoids politics in his dinner reflection.

There's also a Prayer Breakfast in the Parliament Buildings, but I can't remember if it's daily, weekly, monthly, or a yearly thing. All parties are invited.

Sun, 2010-05-30 23:32

Fidel

ebodyknows wrote:
Why can't shopping malls fullfil the religon void?

Was that you who I saw in the mall last Sunday in the middle of mass hour?

I think people do worship at the malls nowadays. They buy useless plastic widgets and baubles with built-in obsolescence regularly, and which are eventually thrown on the capitalist scrapheaps of time. At some point, all the stuff is transformed into gigantic monuments to bad design and an ideology out of control. If more people could see these monuments to overconsumption, they might lose a little faith.

Mon, 2010-05-31 00:41

Boom Boom

Boom Boom's picture

I'm in Sept-Iles (and home tomorrow) and this morning I saw the parking lots of every supermarket and the building supply centre packed with vehicles. Why wasn't I in church? Because the joint Anglican/United church here is closed for the summer as far as I know (but the RC churches remain open...).

Mon, 2010-05-31 09:58

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

ebodyknows's picture

Fidel wrote:

ebodyknows wrote:
Why can't shopping malls fulfil the religion void?
They buy useless plastic widgets and baubles with built-in obsolescence regularly, and which are eventually thrown on the capitalist scrapheaps of time. At some point, all the stuff is transformed into gigantic monuments to bad design and an ideology out of control.

I never said the mall promoted the values of good design, non-plasticity, durability or an ideology of self-restraint. Don't totally discount the monumental scrapheap of overconsumption for ecology too has been called an opium for the masses. Besides, attacking the archeological remnants of a faith doesn't necessarily detract from the beauty of those lives that used those relics. We're talking a lot of marriages, babies, birthday parties, scientific discoveries, reuniting of distant lonely souls, the establishment of great life long friendships, passionate love affairs, kind anonymous gestures towards strangers, the education of the masses and so much more that make up the lives of a people living with a relatively high degree of safety and convenience that have produced these monuments. Sure you can have a waste-free wedding and it may very well be more enjoyable or possibly serve better as a reflection of intentions of the celebration but religion can sometimes serve needs that are more practical than practicable.

Tue, 2010-07-06 10:14

Pants-of-dog

While organised religious institutions have been used historically to direct entire communities into all sorts of behaviours impossible for one person, the truth is that the results of such social campaigns have been mixed. On the one hand, we have Torquemada's bloodthristy work with the Inquisition, and on the other hand, we have Martin Luther King Jr's example.

Nowadays, the good seems to involve charity work:

Quote:
The differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions.

EDIT: Added link: http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6577

The bad seems to involve things like the theocracy of Saudi Arabia, the Westboro Baptist Church, and opposition to SSM.

Tue, 2010-07-06 14:03

Stargazer

You forgot to mention the promotion of women as chattel, property and fairly useless unless they are abiding their men, pushing out kids for procreation or assisting in sanctioned church related events.

Religion is a crime racket, worth billions of dollars. Billions. Sure, there are some gains to individuals, but those gains come with the loss of women's status, as seen continuously throughout history.

Tax the shit out of them.

Tue, 2010-07-06 14:31

remind

remind's picture

you are not the first to come here spouting this bull shit about charities and secularists being horrible people while the religious are wonderful, except for.......

pants of a dog....my temper is short with your and your compatriots actions.

Tue, 2010-07-06 16:33

Pants-of-dog

remind wrote:

you are not the first to come here spouting this bull shit about charities and secularists being horrible people while the religious are wonderful, except for.......

pants of a dog....my temper is short with your and your compatriots actions.

I never made any claim about secularists being horrible people. Nor did I claim that religious people were wonderful.

My comment was more about the fact that religious communities, being bound together by a common belief system, are more capable of acting in unison to achieve socio-political goals.

This can be good or bad depending on the goals involved.

Tue, 2010-07-06 18:08

Stargazer

As we've seen, it has mostly been bad. Nothing good can come from religions which pit people against each other and teach that men are superior to women. Maybe on some micro level but never on a macro level. Religion is nasty business.

Tue, 2010-07-06 18:12

Stargazer

Hey remind, notice how people participating in these thinly disguised pro-religion threads never ever respond to the FACT that women are treated like shit? Never do they respond to that. Why? Because the benefit directly from that position. Notice our allies fly out the door when their dear sweet religion is the topic. They can't even bother to say "hey you are right. Religion does treat women like chattel". Nope, it just gets a pass, as if there is no need to mention the horribly destructive way religion is used to control women.

Tue, 2010-07-06 18:46

Pants-of-dog

Stargazer wrote:

Hey remind, notice how people participating in these thinly disguised pro-religion threads never ever respond to the FACT that women are treated like shit? Never do they respond to that. Why? Because the benefit directly from that position. Notice our allies fly out the door when their dear sweet religion is the topic. They can't even bother to say "hey you are right. Religion does treat women like chattel". Nope, it just gets a pass, as if there is no need to mention the horribly destructive way religion is used to control women.

Religion is still used, often, to treat women as second class citizens. It is a disgusting practice.

Thankfully, many people within different religions are attempting to change that, and I have no trouble helping my religious allies who are intent are transforming their religions away from sexism and misogyny towards egalitarian values.

Tue, 2010-07-06 19:03

remind

remind's picture

well stargazer, claims that religious wanks, err 'communities' are more capable than "secularists" in achieving socio-political goals is amazing, as they have done so much positive in the last 2000 years that we should be in awe. Oh that is right they haven't that is why we aren't.

Indeed the factual claim actually is, IMV:

"religious communities are only capable of bringing about negative socio-political goals/ends, as history has shown us for 2000 + years, whilst secularists have made huge strides in socio political equity goals, in less than 100 years."

Tue, 2010-07-06 19:11

milo204

funny about the reference to picking mushrooms...that's why in india the cow is considered sacred, it's on their poop the magic mushroom, which gave the first "religious" experiences, was found...therefore the cow was like a gateway to the spiritual world...

now of course we all know that it is just because mushrooms grow on poop, not cause some god made it so.

are socialst ideas the result of christianity? Doubt it, the bible is filled with the most anti-socialist kind of ideas of domination and murder, obedience to authority, you deserve to die if you don't believe in "our god" etc. although i'm sure more than a few of the early socialist ideas may have been founded by people who ascribed to christianity.

Tue, 2010-07-06 19:22

kropotkin1951

Organized religions take the spirituality and empathy that is innate in us and package it into mumbo jumbo and sacred texts and then sell it to the good of heart for profit. Residential schools were considered charitable organizations for many decades as were orphages for boys in Newfoundland. In Newfoundland the settlers killed all the natives so the priests and brothers were left with only white boys to abuse.

Tue, 2010-07-06 21:52

Pants-of-dog

remind wrote:

well stargazer, claims that religious wanks, err 'communities' are more capable than "secularists" in achieving socio-political goals is amazing, as they have done so much positive in the last 2000 years that we should be in awe. Oh that is right they haven't that is why we aren't.

Indeed the factual claim actually is, IMV:

"religious communities are only capable of bringing about negative socio-political goals/ends, as history has shown us for 2000 + years, whilst secularists have made huge strides in socio political equity goals, in less than 100 years."

First of all, I never made the claim that religious communitiews have historically been more capable of achieving positive socio-political goals. I just talked about socio-political goals in general.

Secondly, secular organisations have also achieved incredibly large and complex socio-poliical goals, such as the Final Solution.

Finally, it can not be objectively said that religious communites are only capable of bringing about negative socio-poloitical goals and ends. Ignoring the simple fact that positive and negative are subjective categories in this discussion, we can still point to the example of Martin Luther King Junior as a religious leader who used his community to effect positive social change in the world.

Tue, 2010-07-06 22:43

Fidel

Stargazer wrote:
Tax the shit out of them.

Our hirelings in Ottawa and Warshington prolly won't be doin that soon. Neoliberal occultists have spent the last 30-some odd years removing taxation from the most valuable assets common to both The Church and capitalists everywhere, meaning land and everything attached to the land, while shifting tax burdens onto labour. Latin America's fraudsters and con artists are working overtime dreaming up new ways to get deed titles into the hands of peasants squatting on valuable land in order that the rich can steal it from them later. It's novueau liberation theology whereby hundreds of millions of poor people are being liberated from the land sustaining them and prodded into increasingly crowded cities, transformed into economic refugees, displaced and discarded by a system that is incompatible with basic human rights and living things in general etc.

Wed, 2010-07-07 01:42

writer

writer's picture

I walked by St. Michael's Boys Choir School today. Right next to it, proudly tied to the metal fence of St. Michael's Church, was a Share Life poster. I had some very dark thoughts there for a bit. Kind of wanted to throw up. Or kick something.

Wed, 2010-07-07 02:11

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

RevolutionPlease's picture

I almost went there writer and was awarded a medal for my altar boy service at 13. I think I got out just in time. It was tough with the folks but it was worth it. I'm still insane. :)

Wed, 2010-07-07 11:19

kropotkin1951

I got the other kind of "medal" from being an altar boy and going to a Basilican high school.

Wed, 2010-07-07 20:28

Stargazer

Unfortunately there are a lot of damaged grown men who also got the same 'metal' and are still in court fighting the church. Meanwhile their lives have been ruined.

Wed, 2010-07-07 23:38

Fidel

If we could just get rid of the Church tomorrow, then child abuse would be reduced by some small percentage of the total effect. If we could peer into homes and half-way houses, orphanages, and prisons holding children in adult cells around the world including here in this very hemisphere, people would be absolutely horrified.

Thu, 2010-07-08 07:01

Stargazer

Oh Fidel, you are so typical. So very very prediactble. It gets annoying. Yes, you love religion. Good, I'm sure there is a spot for you in heaven. When some here speak of the trauma's hey suffered at the hands of a church, your best it to come back with this lame post?

Of course paedophilia won't disappear when the church is gone but hey, guess what will Fidel? A sociopathic organization that covers up child abuse will disappear. Now don't play stupid anymore. It is beneath you.

Thu, 2010-07-08 07:20

Caissa

The Rector and all of the wardens are all women at the Anglican Church I attend. Blanket assertions that all religions treat women like shit can't be supported in the 21st c.

Thu, 2010-07-08 08:05

Unionist

Since the age of 12 (approximately), I've found it interesting that almost all religious people believe that the church they were born into is the "true" one.

That was the first strong hint to me (from God, I think) that they're all crap.

Thu, 2010-07-08 08:41

writer

writer's picture

The church is dead. Long live the church.

kropotkin1951, I am so deeply sorry about what happened to you. And others.

As a teen, I worked at a place called Southdown. A lot of folks from Mount Cashel were there, before anyone knew what that meant. Teens working at Southdown weren't told what that meant, either.

Thu, 2010-07-08 09:26

Stargazer

Bullshit Caisssa. Name me ONE organized religion that doesn't treat women like shit. One. So the Anglican church is all women pastors. So fucking what? That does not prove even remotely that churches are not beacons of condoned and enforced sexism.

Thu, 2010-07-08 09:29

Caissa

I did name you one, Stargazer. The Anglican parish I happen to attend. you can beleive me or not as you see fit.

Are you going to suggest the Unitarian Universalists are "a baeacon of condoned and enforced sexism"?

Thu, 2010-07-08 10:23

Pants-of-dog

Stargazer wrote:

..... Name me ONE organized religion that doesn't treat women like shit. One. ...

Does the Wiccan Church of Canada count?

http://www.wcc.on.ca/index.html

Thu, 2010-07-08 14:03

kropotkin1951

Stargazer wrote:

Unfortunately there are a lot of damaged grown men who also got the same 'metal' and are still in court fighting the church. Meanwhile their lives have been ruined.

I know that my privilege helped me in my fight. I spent nearly $50,000 on reports and was in hock to my fancy lawyers to the tune of nearly $200,000 before I got the Catholic money men to sit down and negotiate a settlement. Interestingly enough one of the Bishops involved in paying for the settlement was in my home room in high school the year I was being abused. They stonewalled me for 6 years and the settlement cost them at least 6 times more that if they had sat down and treated me with respect in the first place. Those six years of walking the bankruptcy line trying to get justice where unbelievably stressful.

I still have anger issues when I see abusive situations and some of you might have noticed it has given me an anti-authority mind set. The last result I consider to be a blessing from the church.

Fidel you remind me of an arbitrator I know very well and have known for many years. He was the valedictorian at the same high school. Twice in my presence he made a joke about having gone to catholic high school and he had no problems so he didn't understand it. The second time I went at him at explained very clearly who the priest was and he knew him also. This person had minimized the abuse of children in his support of the church. Meanwhile the abuser during our time in the high school was promoted from Asst., Principal to Principal. I learned through document discovery he was promoted after the first complaints came in. By the time I sued they had already had him in therapy for what was believed was abuse of close to a hundred children and I still had to fight them for six years.

Thu, 2010-07-08 16:16

VanGoghs Ear

this thread started off interesting and went in a somewhat predictable direction

as an agnostic - my contribution is based more on books I've read by Dostoyevsky, Camus, philosophy in general.

Love in the original christian meaning - as in "love thy neighbour as yourself" (neighbour meaning people nearby where you happen to be) - cannot be understood in the abstract, it must be experienced on the giving or recieving end to understand it's transformative power.

at least that's the theory and all the rest of the side issues people get caught up in when discussing "Christianity" having nothing to do with the real lasting power of this faith which is what Jesus repeats more than anything else in the bible - give yourself- not just money or possesions but everything - your love, trust,ect to whoever needs it- and have faith that you will be repaid in heaven

it's the people who you find it hardest to love who you need it the most - this is the hard part and seperate true christians from fake ones.

I'm not even a believer but I think I explained it the best I know how

Thu, 2010-07-08 16:28

kropotkin1951

Philosophically one of the big differences between anarchist thought and Christian thought is that the anarchist believes that people are inherently good and can learn to live in peace. The Xians believe people are inherently bad and need redemption. Selling redemption is the real role of organized religion.

Thu, 2010-07-08 16:40

kropotkin1951

Nit pick words much? I am not sure what you were trying to say. i could have been very formal and said that Xians believe that all people are born into a state of sin and without divine intervention they are damned for all of eternity but I thought what I said above was reasonably clear.

Thu, 2010-07-08 16:43

VanGoghs Ear

I hear you but Good/Bad are kind of simplistic terms - selfish, greedy, fearful ? Those seem like pretty common human traits.

Thu, 2010-07-08 17:13

VanGoghs Ear

sorry I did understood what you were saying -

I was meaning that I don't personally as a non christian believe that humans are born good. I think we're born with a survival instinct which make us naturally selfish, fearful, ect. and we must learn not to be.

I think the law which has effected humans - human society's devolopment and progression the most - is The law of unintended consequences.

I'm supposed be working so I can't talk much now

Thu, 2010-07-08 20:12

remind

remind's picture

VGE, you are wrong.....

Thu, 2010-07-08 20:34

Stargazer

he may be right. Are we born good, bad, neutral? Where do we get our socialization from? Where do we take our cues from?

One thing we do know, with absolute certainty, is that religion is not, for a large majority of people, the sole defining source of altruistic feelings and behaviour.For many it isn't a part of our upbringing and yet we still manage to be good people.

Caissa, tell me, what does the church you speak of teach? Does it teach women are equals? Just because women are pasters does not mean they are treated as equals. If the fundamentals of that church are based on the Bible then there is still rampant sexism.

Your defense does not hold true. It's like saying the Republican party isn't chock full of racists because a few black men are members.

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