the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act

101 posts / 0 new

Tue, 2022-11-15 15:03

Pondering

susan davis wrote:
You are just trying to justify your ignoring of these inappropriate exclusions in favor of your stated position that all sex work is violence or is bad.

You are straight up lying. That is not my stated position.
You are resorting to lies, insults and baiting suggesting your arguments are weak. Otherwise it wouldn't be necessary.

Whether or not a particular study adheres to the principles or not is specific to the study. It is always best to know how study participants were chosen and what the specific questions were as well as the order in which they were given, and depending on the issue if there were control groups involved.

Prostitution has been notoriously difficult to study. There is no record in New Zealand of whether violence went up or down after decriminalization because no actual medical records were kept for comparison. Almost all studies rely on opinion surveying. Sex workers that want decriminalization are motivated to answer in certain ways. Sex workers that have exited and consider the industry harmful are motivated to answer differently.

The words of sex workers on both sides of the isle deserve to be heard. So do the words of police and social workers and researchers.

Tue, 2022-11-15 16:10

#53

Pondering

JKR wrote:
Pondering wrote:
<p>How would I know? Ask his wife. </p>

You don’t think why a prime minister or their government established Bill 36 is pertinent to understanding Bill 36? The anti-Feminist pro evangelical Christian patriarchal Harper government supported Bill C 36 because it is an anti-Feminist pro evangelical Christian patriarchal law.

If you thought you already knew the answer why did you ask me? Why didn't you just say that is what you think?

Sweden is not an anti-Feminist pro evangelical Christian patriarchal country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism_in_Sweden

Feminism in Sweden is a significant social and political influence within Swedish society.[1][2] Swedish political parties across the political spectrum commit to gender-based policies in their public political manifestos.[3] The Swedish government assesses all policy according to the tenets of gender mainstreaming.[4][5] Women in Sweden are 45% of the political representatives in the Swedish Parliament. Women make up 43% of representatives in local legislatures as of 2014.[1] In addition, in 2014, newly sworn in Foreign Minister Margot Wallström announced a feminist foreign policy.[6]

Swedish feminism dates back to the 17th century and was discussed in intellectual circles throughout the 18th century. Since the publication Samtal emellan Argi Skugga och en obekant Fruentimbers Skugga by Margareta Momma in 1738, followed by Hedvig Charlotta Nordenflycht's famous poem Fruntimrens försvar (To the Defense of Women, 1761) debate on gender roles and gender equality has become a mainstream topic.

Our law is based on the Nordic model but with significant improvements. It is definitely feminist and not in the least bit evangelical or puritan or man-hating. Even so I have my own reasons for supporting the bill. Like most people my reasoning and opinions don’t fall into a neat box. There is no one ideology or political party or activist or religious leader that represents me. I’m not responsible for Harper’s views or Sweden's views anyone else’s.

I try to think through issues for myself. I don’t like being told I don’t know enough to have an informed opinion. That is the excuse used for people who wanted only a certain class of people to be able to vote. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to share it. No one should be disrespected for doing so.

Tue, 2022-11-15 21:53

(Reply to #53) #54

susan davis susan davis's picture

Pondering wrote:

You are straight up lying. That is not my stated position.
You are resorting to lies, insults and baiting suggesting your arguments are weak. Otherwise it wouldn't be necessary.

Whether or not a particular study adheres to the principles or not is specific to the study. It is always best to know how study participants were chosen and what the specific questions were as well as the order in which they were given, and depending on the issue if there were control groups involved.

Prostitution has been notoriously difficult to study. There is no record in New Zealand of whether violence went up or down after decriminalization because no actual medical records were kept for comparison. Almost all studies rely on opinion surveying. Sex workers that want decriminalization are motivated to answer in certain ways. Sex workers that have exited and consider the industry harmful are motivated to answer differently.

The words of sex workers on both sides of the isle deserve to be heard. So do the words of police and social workers and researchers.

who is the one "lying" here.... there are lots of studies from new zealand... LOTS!!!!!!

Ethics in research involving human beings is ALWAYS subject to scrutiny under the tri council policy statement - period... there are no exceptions -period

appropriate inclusion and inappropriate exclusion are fundamental principals of research which abolitionists - like you - always try to dismiss as their preferred research outcomes rarely meet the criteria to stand the test of the tri council policy statement... which is why in turn - those "opinion" writings are given "no weight" in court and do not qualify as evidence.

pretend all you like.... lie all you like.... insult me call me names...i don't care... i have heard it all before

Wed, 2022-11-16 00:42

#55

Pondering

I did not state the following: your stated position that all sex work is violence or is bad.

Those are your words not mine. At this point it is not a mistake anymore. You are lying about my views to dramatize. You are victim posturing all the while declaring yourself not to be one. I agree that you are not a victim.

I didn't claim there were no studies from New Zealand. There is a massive study. It was entirely based on surveying prostitutes on their perceptions on how things did and didn't change and it is very old as is most research almost all of which are opinion surveys no matter where they are from. Hard data is hard to come by. Stories from survivors are harrowing but they too are anecdotal. The most factual information we have is from police but that can't be considered unbiased. Everybody has an angle.

Pragmatically we all know prostitution in all forms is not going away if it is defined broadly. What abolitionists are really fighting against is the institutionalization of prostitution as a form of labor like any other. The reasons for that are itemized in the bill.

Bill C 36 has not shut down massage parlours or strip clubs or escort or dating services. It has prevented the explosion of brothels and advertisments spelling out specific services.

Wed, 2022-11-16 01:06

#56

susan davis susan davis's picture

sure, keep telling yourself no businesses have been closed, that no one has been arrested, that criminalzation has not impacted anyone.... you are all over the map.... you have no idea how vehement the anti sex work crusaders you align values with can be.... are.....

you admit we need places to work when you try to defend the law by saying - no safe work places were closed....

do you think street level sex workers really need criminalization and more police surveillance in ther lives?

if not and you understand we need places to work... you support decrim...

that doesn't mean you can't still try to end demand or educate sex work out of existance.... it just means you don't don't get to send armed men to harrass, traumatize and degrade us

Wed, 2022-11-16 01:27

#57

Pondering

You didn't actually provide any information there. You continue to project things I have not said. My values are my own. I don't answer for the actions of other people.

I didn't say no places were closed nor that they were safe. I don't think massage parlours and strip clubs are safe. I think women in those establishments even though they are legal still get abused.

Which actual applications of bill C 36 have happened that you object to?

Thu, 2022-11-17 14:09

#58

susan davis susan davis's picture

Here' an enforcement tactic praised as "good" - fake appointments booked with over 350 sex workers.... dressed in "work attire" answering the door to police officers with guns who enter your space and illegally search... for clarity - I don't wear a shirt when I answer the door.... high heels , stockings, garters.... then not given time to cover up, humiliated, threatened....

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/news/2018/operation-northern-spotlight-vii...

From October 15 to 21, police arrested 20 persons through the seventh edition of Operation Northern Spotlight.

Operation Northern Spotlight is a Canadian law enforcement outreach operation where police work with vulnerable communities and social workers to identify and provide support to individuals who are suspected of being forced into the sex trade, or believed to be at high risk of being trafficked.

During pre-arranged meetings, these individuals are provided with enough information from the police and support from non-government organizations (NGOs) to give them an opportunity to exit the sex trade if they are being exploited.

This year's operation was led by the RCMP's Human Trafficking National Coordination Centre in partnership with the Ontario Provincial Police and a total of 62 agencies from Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Nunavut, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island.

Law enforcement increased collaboration with 26 NGOs to build on best practices for when interviewing independent sex trade workers.

RCMP Assistant Commissioner Eric Slinn of Federal Policing Criminal Operations, states "These operations and protecting vulnerable people is of the utmost importance to police. On behalf of the RCMP, I'd like to thank the OPP, our Canadian law enforcement partners, and NGOs for their assistance in another successful edition of Operation Northern Spotlight."

Results

Police interviewed 351 people and removed 10 people, including 2 under the age of 18, from exploitive and dangerous situations. A total of 52 charges were laid against 22 individuals, including Trafficking in Persons.

This is the response SWAN Vancouver about these so called "rescue missions";

https://www.straight.com/news/933756/open-letter-decries-police-posing-s...

"Rescue" missions such as Operation Northern Spotlight do more harm than good (1). A quick-fix attempt to deal with a complex issue, Operation Northern Spotlight sweeps up everyone present for interrogation, detention, and/or arrest, without adequately distinguishing between those who are underage and/or coerced and those who are not.

This strategy is one that is based on deception and manipulation, as evidenced by police posing as sex workers’ clients in hotel rooms and "shock and awe" raids on indoor sex-work venues. These actions foster distrust and adversarial relationships with law enforcement. Pulling people out of the sex industry without their consent and penalizing those who do not agree to exit the sex industry does not "save" or "rescue" them.

"Rescuing" individuals who do not wish to be rescued has multiple impacts. Sex workers report being confused and frightened and may suffer trauma and even exhibit symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder. Sex workers lose income and experience economic hardship. This places sex workers in a precarious position where they must either accept dates or provide services they normally wouldn’t to recoup losses. Operation Northern Spotlight can also have consequences for public health, as sex workers report reluctance to keep large quantities of condoms on commercial premises for fear of raids. Operation Northern Spotlight also has a ripple effect beyond those directly impacted by driving sex workers further underground to evade police detection and making sex workers less likely to turn to law enforcement if violence occurs.

Thu, 2022-11-17 14:14

#59

susan davis susan davis's picture

It would be helpful to me if you would just do a little research on your own.... i want you to understand the problems with your opinion and perspective - as an abolitionist you are part of the loudest, most funded and priviledged side in this arguement - sex workers have no privilege and spoken over ....all the time....

I don't think you will search sex worker org's in canada, i don't think you actually care... i think you just want to fight all the time....

but one can hope....

Thu, 2022-11-17 22:17

#60

Pondering

Here' an enforcement tactic praised as "good" - fake appointments booked with over 350 sex workers.... dressed in "work attire" answering the door to police officers with guns who enter your space and illegally search... for clarity - I don't wear a shirt when I answer the door.... high heels , stockings, garters.... then not given time to cover up, humiliated, threatened....

It could be a plumber or a girl guide selling cookies so maybe put on a sexy dress. In my experience men can eliminate a dress very quickly if it’s the right design. It need not delay business for more than a split second.

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/news/2018/operation-northern-spotlight-vii...

…During pre-arranged meetings, these individuals are provided with enough information from the police and support from non-government organizations (NGOs) to give them an opportunity to exit the sex trade if they are being exploited……..Law enforcement increased collaboration with 26 NGOs to build on best practices for when interviewing independent sex trade workers.

It doesn’t sound like they went in waving guns and threatening anyone. They made meetings and didn’t wait for buyers to show up so they could bust someone. NGOs were present.

Police interviewed 351 people and removed 10 people, including 2 under the age of 18, from exploitive and dangerous situations. A total of 52 charges were laid against 22 individuals, including Trafficking in Persons.

22 individuals charged, 10 removed, so 351-32=319 women who were left to go about their business.

People get flat tires or get sick and miss work. This happens once a year so at the cost of 319 women losing at most an evening’s work 22 exploiters were caught, 2 minors rescued, 8 other workers were also removed.

https://www.straight.com/news/933756/open-letter-decries-police-posing-s...

"Rescue" missions such as Operation Northern Spotlight do more harm than good (1). A quick-fix attempt to deal with a complex issue, Operation Northern Spotlight sweeps up everyone present for interrogation, detention, and/or arrest, without adequately distinguishing between those who are underage and/or coerced and those who are not.

While appointments were made with many, few people were picked up and charged. It seems most were questioned without any bright lights, given information then left alone.

Pulling people out of the sex industry without their consent and penalizing those who do not agree to exit the sex industry does not "save" or "rescue" them.

But they weren’t pulled out. It seems the only penalty was losing time to questioning. Sometimes as good citizens we put up with losing time like at drunken driving checks or give up time to sit on a jury. 22 exploiters were arrested and 2 minors were removed. It happens once a year.

"Rescuing" individuals who do not wish to be rescued has multiple impacts. Sex workers report being confused and frightened and may suffer trauma and even exhibit symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder.

Then I hope it’s enough to scare them out of the business because any woman that isn't wearing armor doesn’t belong in the industry. There is no doubt that it radically increases the risk that a woman will face harsh and frightening experiences. If being questioned by police offering information on exit services is even potentially confusing and frightening they need out. They are not prepared for an aggressive man demanding services they don’t want to do. They are not prepared for a man who enjoys verbally degrading women while humiliating them sexually. That's the not too serious stuff they could have to deal with.

Sex workers lose income and experience economic hardship. This places sex workers in a precarious position where they must either accept dates or provide services they normally wouldn’t to recoup losses.

ONS is once a year. If losing even one evening’s work means they have to take risks to make up for it they must be making a pittance. I’m not seeing much upside to the business.

Operation Northern Spotlight can also have consequences for public health, as sex workers report reluctance to keep large quantities of condoms on commercial premises for fear of raids.

That makes no sense. How many condoms do you need for one evening? I don’t believe that police are searching purses. Tell the client to bring a box of sealed Trojans. What is meant by “commercial premises?” in terms of Operation Northern Spotlight?

Operation Northern Spotlight also has a ripple effect beyond those directly impacted by driving sex workers further underground to evade police detection and making sex workers less likely to turn to law enforcement if violence occurs.

They can’t go further underground because the clients have to be able to find them. If clients can find them so can police. Sex workers aren’t breaking the law and the client is automatically breaking the law so it is easier for sex workers to turn to police.

Thu, 2022-11-17 22:50

#61

Pondering

In my experience the sex worker lobby is by far the loudest voice and gets the most sympathetic hearing in the MSM. I don't see sex workers being spoken over. There is an entire forum on this site. I see abolitionists being constantly attacked and denigrated.

I have done plenty of research including threads in the Sex Worker Forum and various legal frameworks around the world and even the historical place of prostitution as part of many cultures. All of this has contributed to my understanding of how prostitution has impacted women and is impacting women today.

I don't want to fight at all. I want to be understood. It would be even nicer to be a agreed with but genuine understanding and respect goes far. Willingness to explore the topic in greater depth with an open mind goes far.

While men and women have profound differences we are still more alike than we are different. Most men have had various women in their lives as mothers, sisters, sisters in law, daugthers, friends, lovers, wives. Despite the jokes we are not complete mysteries to men. I think most men can determine that it takes a particular character for a woman to face the kind of situations this job presents. I am not saying that as a bad thing. The Ukrainian woman soldier sniper I linked to in another thread takes a certain kind of character. It is not every women who could do what she does. I couldn't. I am not ashamed to admit it.

Prostitution is not just like giving a back rub to most people.

Fri, 2022-11-18 01:06

#62

susan davis susan davis's picture

thank you, for ignoring and dismissing all the harms caused by increased enforcement... thank you for saying... it's okay.... cause that made it... okay.....

you have no clue what you are talking about and are extremely rude for dismissing police violence against sex workers. yes... violence.... you think it's okay.... this is the fundamental problem with people like you.... you just don't get it and feel we deserve what we get... i mean that's what it comes down to right? as long as you can get what you want - police violence and punishment of sex workers - then who cares how many are harmed, who cares if sex workers feel unsafe reporting violence...

what could go wrong? i mean it's not like people are serial killing sex workers right now....

do you understand at all that some police refuse to engage in the operation due to the harm it causes? and the lessons learned in BC about serial killers? sex workers? and the chronic barriers to reporting?

you claim to want to protect youth or the most vulnerable.... but with your other hypocritical hand....support violence against us....

bizarre

Fri, 2022-11-18 01:17

#63

susan davis susan davis's picture

and.... i will NEVER agree with your vile "opinions" about our lives and the value of our work and safety. We are people, who have families ..... your statements are down right whorephobic... you don;t know anything about us yet continue to drop your assertions based on yoru feelings about how "easy our lives are and how we shouldn't mind gun totting police cowboys pushing into our spaces with out any warning... and yes, with guns...ffs

why would i ever agree with anything a hateful person like you said about my community? you clearly thingk we're low or beneath you so be happy! you get to say whatever you want to sex workers about your feelings with out any reprecussions...

all because the government ommitted three little words

... or other status

in the charter....

imagine if you said any of these things about.....jewish people for example....

they only violated the rights of and terrorized 315 jews....

they only violated the rights of and terrorized 315 muslims.... but they found 2 terrorists.... so that's okay....muslims should expect to be treated that way and it's only for one night... they got to back to their mosque the next day.....

with repsect..... NEVER will agree with you

Fri, 2022-11-18 08:19

#64

Pondering

Susan, I never ever expect you to agree with me. You are not a victim of prostitution. You are content in your work. You want the industry to be treated like any other. You believe the primary problem with prostitution is that it is illegal. You believe the New Zealand model to be the best. You project the version of prostitution that is easy and fun not I. You diminish sex workers when you insist they are forced onto the street if there are no brothels as if there is no other form of employment they are capable of.

The goal of a serial killer is to isolate someone with no means to connect their disappearance to the killer. It can't be caught on camera. No one can be paying special attention. If anyone sees a person getting in the car it has to look normal. Street prostitutes are ideal targets.

There should be cameras recording the licence plate numbers of cars in the DTES and which women get into which cars but both employers and sellers would likely object to that.

From what I have seen so far the legal status of prostitution does not impact the number of murders either way. As long as there are women willing to get into a car with no one knowing who they are with they will be targets for serial murderers. They are obvious prey.

Fri, 2022-11-18 08:37

#65

Pondering

The government didn't omit any words to the charter. No rights were violated minority or otherwise.

I think that you are grossly minimizing the hardship inherent in some forms of prostitution and that you are giving conflicting accounts of relations with police. Police are transformed from benevolent partners to monsters depending on whether or not you approve of their task. Police brutality certainly happens but sellers are no longer subject to arrest.

I can see why sellers would be annoyed, even upset, at having an appointment that ended up being a police interview and presentation of exit services instead of a paying customer. Northern Spotlight police had been coached on how to interact with sex workers. I don't buy your interpretation that they were terrorizing sex workers.

Fri, 2022-11-18 18:01

#66

susan davis susan davis's picture

i am not alone in my und3erstanding of the harms caused by enforcement -

from Chateliane;

https://www.chatelaine.com/living/politics/sex-workers-pcepa-2022/

For more than a decade, Jane Li supported her family through sex work. Once she retired, Li helped other sex workers with administrative tasks—answering the phone, setting up dates, posting advertisements. But most importantly, she helped them reject rude or dangerous clients. Until several years ago, that is, when Li was arrested and charged for sex work-related crimes. The sex workers she was helping were either deported or forced to stop working, while Li was put in prison.

“The police took my phone and all my money. I have lost my apartment and became homeless without income. I can’t even afford to pay for my food,” Li says. “I do not force anyone to work. I do not exploit anyone. There are so many nights I want to end my life because of this injustice.”

Fri, 2022-11-18 18:22

(Reply to #66) #67

susan davis susan davis's picture

Pondering wrote:

Susan, I never ever expect you to agree with me. You are not a victim of prostitution. You are content in your work. You want the industry to be treated like any other. You believe the primary problem with prostitution is that it is illegal. You believe the New Zealand model to be the best. You project the version of prostitution that is easy and fun not I. You diminish sex workers when you insist they are forced onto the street if there are no brothels as if there is no other form of employment they are capable of.

The goal of a serial killer is to isolate someone with no means to connect their disappearance to the killer. It can't be caught on camera. No one can be paying special attention. If anyone sees a person getting in the car it has to look normal. Street prostitutes are ideal targets.

There should be cameras recording the licence plate numbers of cars in the DTES and which women get into which cars but both employers and sellers would likely object to that.

From what I have seen so far the legal status of prostitution does not impact the number of murders either way. As long as there are women willing to get into a car with no one knowing who they are with they will be targets for serial murderers. They are obvious prey.

victim of prostitution - not victim of violence.... do yu understand the problem with that statement?
what do you know about the "motives" of mass murderers...?
the men who both went into multiple sex work businesses and attacked and murdered the sex workers there - Atlanta and Toronto - stated they were trying to "remove" the temptation - they were trying to a "good for society"...
not trying to isolate anyone, the mass killed people in sequence on the same day and tried to hide nothing.....
again, your narrow assumptions about our lives and why people kill us..... do nothing to serve ending violence against any women....
all sex workers are obvious prey, just as the anti sex work crusaders intended... and the government as well....
In Sweden and in Canada - governments stated explicitly that they wanted to discourage sex work by making it dangerous, less appealing, more marginalized...
They drew another circle around sex workers as disposable voiceless victims who no one cares about and no one will miss.... we are singled out as acceptable for murder by the very groups who pretend to want to want to "rescue" us....

Fri, 2022-11-18 18:13

#68

susan davis susan davis's picture

and for the record.... I have survived 4 attempts on my life, an abusive husband of 10 years ( escaped) and assaults due to risk created by these laws....

I am not some "happy hooker" who never experienced violence... so I would thank you to stop trying to cast me as such

Fri, 2022-11-18 18:20

#69

susan davis susan davis's picture

and police in different parts of the country enforce in different ways depending on the environment - in BC that environment includes a profound failure on the part of police in relation to the case of the missing women and reuslted in changes to the way policing works here.... but that is only here.... and is why BC police services do not engage in the Northern spotlight operations. They know it causes harm and does nothing to further the fight to combat violence against sex workers

it's not a matter of "sex workers being annoyed" - having armed men force their way into your home while you are partially naked, searching.... laughing at you when you say you are uncomfortable due to a previous sexual assault....
your dismissal of our concerns and experiences does not equal them not happening....
sex workers say police intervention on our lives is violence.... it is violence.... not an "inconvenience"

Fri, 2022-11-18 19:14

(Reply to #69) #70

Pondering

susan davis wrote:

and for the record.... I have survived 4 attempts on my life, an abusive husband of 10 years ( escaped) and assaults due to risk created by these laws....

I am not some "happy hooker" who never experienced violence... so I would thank you to stop trying to cast me as such

I never called you a happy hooker. I said you are content in your line of work. I spent time looking for the right word specifically not to imply anything other than the same level of job satisfaction anyone might have in any line of work.

You consistently misrepresent what I say. It seems you have to rely on dishonesty to make your points.

It isn't the laws that created the risks. It's the men who enjoy abusing women. The easiest way to get a woman to abuse is to hire one. No need to go through the whole relationship crap.

Serial killers and mass killers are different animals. Mass killers do their killing out in the open. Serial killers look for victims that can't be tied to them in any personal way.

susan davis wrote:
In Sweden and in Canada - governments stated explicitly that they wanted to discourage sex work by making it dangerous, less appealing, more marginalized...

You are using inflamatory language to try to whip up emotions and prevent people from taking an unemotional look at the facts. It's also not true.

I asked you for specific examples of enforcement of C 36 and you offered up Northern Spotlight. They made appointments so they were not forcing themselves into rooms. They were coached and accompanied by NGOs. I don't believe they were laughing.

I am sorry you experienced violence. It is all too common an experience for women in general not just sex workers.

Fri, 2022-11-18 19:48

#71

Pondering

victim of prostitution - not victim of violence.... do yu understand the problem with that statement?

Some women do consider themselves victims of prostitution. They don't believe that decriminalization is the answer. They say prostitution is the problem and laws targeting demand is the solution. You can't just erase their opinions because you don't like them. You are not a victim of prostitution. They are.

The Nordic Model, also known as the End Demand Model, claims to immunize sex workers from prosecution and protect them from abuse. But in reality, sex workers are still criminalized under PCEPA for providing helpful services to other sex workers such as booking appointments, providing a workspace, or translation, driving or advertising. Even providing sex workers with vital assistance like taking down licence plate numbers and client descriptions to make sure that the client is not a known abuser is an offence.

https://www.chatelaine.com/living/politics/sex-workers-pcepa-2022/

I'd like to see the actual list of charges. I doubt writing down licence plate numbers was in the list.

Stories from sex workers who want decriminalization are biased so it's important to look for factual information and consider credibility. Leaving out what the charges were is suspect. It is central information. Also, when did this happen? Before or after the change in laws?

The article goes on to say:

PCEPA criminalizes most aspects of sex work—including communicating to obtain sexual services, placing advertisements, renting work space to sex workers, working for sex workers, and managing or hiring sex workers.

But

This means that the new laws do not prevent sellers from taking certain safety measures, should they continue to sell sexual services. These safety measures include selling sexual services, whether independently or cooperatively, from fixed indoor locations, hiring legitimate bodyguards who do not engage in exploitative behaviour and negotiating safer conditions for the sale of sexual services in public places...(-playgrounds)

In the labour thread we have already covered that escorting and massage parlours are alive and well.

We also covered the mimimal enforcement policy which I thought you said has been expanded across Canada.

In my opinion C 36 at this point in time is barely being enforced.

Fri, 2022-11-18 22:05

#72

Pondering

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2021001/article/00010-eng.htm

Long term decline in police-reported crimes related to the sex trade largely occurred prior to new legislation, driven by decrease in stopping or communicating offences

Prior to the enactment of the PCEPA in 2014, rates of police-reported crime related to the sex trade in Canada had been in steady decline since the 1985 implementation of the law prohibiting communicating in public places for the purposes of purchasing or selling sexual services (Rotenberg 2016). Between 2010 and 2019, the years examined in this study, the number of police-reported crimes related to the sex trade decreased by 55%.Note

This decline was driven by a substantial (-95%) decrease in the number of incidents of stopping or communicating offences (Criminal Code of Canada s. 213). In 2010, police reported over 2,600 incidents of these offences which then dropped to 134 incidents in 2019 (Table 1). Much of this decrease occurred in the years leading up to the enactment of the PCEPA (Chart 1).

That is a radical decrease in enforcement.

Sat, 2022-11-19 03:48

#73

susan davis susan davis's picture

yup, ignore and dismiss us... we're so powerful.... stats can is not a relevant citation - it is not peer reviewed doesn't reflect anything but the direct arrests of sex workers themselves for communication.... it's not a refleciton of the truth.... you are again going in circles using radom stats you find with no context... so...

how many sex workers were deported... how many were caught up in rescue operations? how many sex workers money was seized under crazy financial restrictions? how many sex workers children were seized? how many sex workers lost their housing because of sex work? how many sex worker were "outed" to their families and friedns? how many sex workers couldn't get medical treatment due to bias? how many sex workers tried to report violence and were met with police bias? how many sex workers were blocked by gate keeping call takers refusing to take reports of violence? how many sex workers had to spend hours defending their right to exist? how many sex workers face fear right now as their countries entertain the idea of the nordic model? how many sex workers were caught up in police surveillance of poor people? how many sex workers were denied the right to travel due to their sex worker status? how many sex workers received notices to return CERB Payments ? how many sex workers lost their "square" jobs due to being outed? how many sex workers criminal records prevented them from moving on with their lives? how many sex workers were extorted for sex or money to keep their sex work a secret? how many sex workers had their content removed from online? how many sex workers lost their jobs due to police interference in the worplace? how many sex workers had to drop out of school due to being "outed"? how many sex workers experienced hate crimes in the form of verbal and physical abuse? how many sex workers families rejected them due to being outed? how many sex wrkers were forced to turn to street level work due to closure of their work place? how many sex workers had to deal with support services judging them? how many sex workers died using poisinned drugs to cope with criminalization? how many sex workers feared for their futures? how many sex workers wondered when this criminalization would end? how many sex workers wondered.....

who cares right?

you can keep going and i will still call you out on your total lack of compassion, understanding and empathy of any kind for sex workers... your preferred approach is harming us .... can you hear anything being said?

the enforcement policy you have clearly not read... has NOT been adopted... once again... do you actually read anything i have responded with?

who cares about sex workers... we're so privileged and get what we deserve...after all... we're decriminalized...right? it's just a few seconds of inconvenience..... don't worry... your children are better off... don;t worry... you will enjoy that re-education camp in china.... dont worry ... anti sex work crudasers have your best interests at heart.... on the condition you renounce and become the cheap maid they need....

fuckin Bourgeoisie.....

Sat, 2022-11-19 04:35

#74

Pondering

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Stats can used police data and the chart tracks a variety of offences. It is straight data. It doesn't need to be peer reviewed. There is nothing random about the information.

I don't agree with you about what does and doesn't harm sex workers. You are one sex worker. You don't seem concerned about driving down prices for other Canadian sex workers, making life harder for them. I don't accept your claim to be speaking for all sex workers in Canada.

Sat, 2022-11-19 15:08

#75

susan davis susan davis's picture

Driving down prices? where the hell did that come from..... sex workers set their own prices .... it goes from transactional sex- like sex for a place to stay - to $800 an hour in BC..... no one is price fixing or driving down prices....

You call me a liar, you say I don't understad my own community and ignore my 20 years of work in this issue, you claim I am privieged and do not deserve a perspective, you state that only sex workers who experience violence should be allowed to weigh in.....

you dismiss other sex workers perspectives and claim they are also privileged and do not deserve to weigh in....

only you have a "valid" perspective and all others are trolls...

is this what you are trying to communicate with your posts?

Sat, 2022-11-19 15:22

#76

Pondering

I have gone out of my way to make sure your voice is heard and to show respect to all sex workers. My posts in this thread and others prove it. It's a short thread so people can see for themselves.

Sat, 2022-11-19 17:52

#77

susan davis susan davis's picture

go back and count how many times you have called me a liar.... although i am sure you will then edit ..... you call that repectful and giving space for my voice?

Sat, 2022-11-19 19:32

#78

Pondering

Law of supply and demand. The more available something is the cheaper it gets. In the 70s women were getting 10$ for a no touch table dance. Not any more. Now they do more for less. Not an improvement for them.

The more limited and exclusive something is the more it costs. Basic economics. Once you have a wide open industry the laws of competition introduce mega-brothels with race-based menus. You can pick by race and weight. All day deals. Get a two for one on off hours. That isn't an exageration. Those are literally the signs that go up.

Signs listing women by race and weight are demeaning and degrading. When men order a petite asian woman they are looking for a different experience than when they order a big black african woman. Women are expected to reflect their racist stereotypes as part of the job.

This sends a very public message about the value of women and minorities, but it will not happen in Canada. No government will allow it.

When the product is the intimate sexual services of women being sold to men the usual capitalist approach of driving down costs, maximizing profit and growing the market is not one that I support.

Sat, 2022-11-19 19:33

(Reply to #78) #79

Pondering

susan davis wrote:

go back and count how many times you have called me a liar.... although i am sure you will then edit ..... you call that repectful and giving space for my voice?

I won't edit a thing. Go hunting. If I called you a liar you were misrepresenting my views.

Sun, 2022-11-20 04:10

#80

Pondering

This woman chose to become a prostitute. She still is one. She is consenting.

https://nordicmodelnow.org/2019/11/01/i-am-a-prostitute-i-have-been-a-pr...

I am a prostitute. I have been a prostitute since I was underage. I’m in my mid-30s now. I am not one of those “This is my calling!”, “I can quit anytime I want to!”, or “I can choose my clients and I would never work with the unpleasant ones!” Not at all. I do not want to belittle their experiences, part of it may be true for them, but after many years of hearing from them – hearing how my negative experiences in prostitution are all my own fault and should not be spoken of, I have started to question their truth as well, not just my own truth...

As for the prostitutes that chose this job out of many, and are happy with it. I am genuinely happy for your pleasant experience in prostitution, and the fact that you don’t suffer from PTSD caused by it. I’m happy that you had the actual choice to do or not to do this. You are the lucky ones, “the upper class” indeed. But please do not continue to sweep us under the rug out of convenience. We are human beings too. We feel and think, too. And we are silent because of you.

We are lonely, we are ashamed, and we feel like this is all our own fault. Our traumas, our negative feelings, the flashbacks – all our own fault. Because there’s absolutely nothing wrong with prostitution itself, you keep saying.

We, the more marginalized, are often too scared to speak out. Whenever we tell you about our struggles in the sex industry, you keep telling us: “Oh well, you’re just not suited for the job! Get a new one!” But what you fail to see when you say this, is that it was never the dream career choice for us – “the lower class of prostitutes.” It’s not a matter of choice for us, so we cannot simply just “get another job”, like most of you say you can. It’s you who can do that, or at least that is what you tell us.

Some women are greatly harmed by prostitution and they feel silenced and blamed. They are told it is not the prostitution when for them it is the prostitution. She isn't reacting weirdly to it. Her reaction is entirely appropriate for many women. The problem is the damage is cumulative. Women don't get into it knowing they will feel traumatized.

Selling prostitution as a job like any other will draw more women into it. The more women who participate the more women will be traumatized like this one.

I would just sit on my bed afterwards, looking at the money, focusing on it, counting my savings every day to keep myself motivated, and counting how much more I would have to save to retire. To never return, to leave and to forget all that had happened in prostitution. Ever. To erase every single detail of my past.

For a young woman some fast money can seem like a good way to get ahead of the game. By the time they understand the life they have chosen the damage has been done.

Sun, 2022-11-20 08:31

#81

JKR

https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2022/11/16/Oppose-Trafficking-Support-Sex-Wor...

Yes, You Can Oppose Trafficking and Support Sex Workers’ Rights

Decriminalization offers access to legal protections and allows sex workers to access justice if they face violence or exploitation.

Five people stand at Victory Park in Vancouver. One person holds a red umbrella. Everyone holds signs reading things such as, “Sex Workers Rights Are Human Rights” and “Rights not Rescue.” Two signs feature Chinese characters.

SWAN staff and supporters at the 2022 Red Umbrella March, which marks the National Day of Action in support of sex workers. Photo submitted.

Every day, there seems to be more news about human trafficking in Canada. But does this mean that there is more trafficking happening now than there was before? Does it mean that people are finally paying attention to a crime that has been happening all along?

You might be surprised to learn that the answer to both of these questions is “no.”

The reality is that the current discourse around human trafficking is full of imprecise language and inflated numbers. “Human trafficking” is often used to describe everything from intimate partner violence to child sexual exploitation to labour exploitation, casting a wider net that makes it seem like it’s more common than it really is.

SWAN Vancouver is the only organization in Western Canada that supports immigrant and migrant sex workers and has consistent access to the massage and body rub establishments where trafficking is supposedly happening. This access is available to us because we provide low-barrier support and do not require anything in return from the people we serve. We have spent 20 years building a reputation as an organization that centres sex workers’ agency and prioritizes their health, safety and self-determination above all else.

We are uniquely positioned to support both immigrant and migrant sex workers, as well as victims of trafficking. And yet we very rarely come across any of the latter.

Instead, what we see is a troubling conflation of trafficking and sex work.

Trafficking and sex work are not the same. Yet, they are constantly conflated by anti-trafficking advocates, policymakers and the media, which leads to misinformation that causes harm to both sex workers and trafficking victims. A recent example of this happened last year in Winnipeg, where conversations about municipal licensing of escort and body rub parlours were dominated by anti-trafficking advocates who equated selling sex with selling child abuse.

Despite the fact that sex work is widely considered the world’s “oldest profession,” it’s still a topic most Canadians are uncomfortable with. Many people view sex work through a morality based lens, which makes it hard for them to accept that it could be a form of employment someone might choose to do. It’s often easier to believe that everyone in the sex industry is there against their will.

Mainstream media continues to platform anti-trafficking advocates who are anti-sex work, perpetuating the stigma around sex work and promoting the flawed idea that criminalization will eradicate the sex industry. Some prominent anti-sex work, anti-trafficking advocates have been quoted in the media saying things like, “I want the government to indicate that there’s no difference between trafficking, prostitution and pornography. They’re all one and the same,” and “Bawdy houses, body rub parlours, escort services is just a front for human trafficking.”

Often voices invited to speak on violence against sex workers are explicitly campaigning for the abolition of sex work.

But this is not an issue that requires a “both sides” approach — people who are anti-sex work should not be given space to comment on violence against sex workers.

The conflation of trafficking and sex work in Canada has made its way into the highest realm of policy: our federal sex work laws. The Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act was adopted in 2014 after our previous prostitution laws were struck down as unconstitutional. In most ways, however, the act replicates similar violations to sex workers’ health, safety and rights.

In both the initial and 2022 parliamentary review hearings to discuss the act, the discussion always migrated back to human trafficking. Somehow firsthand accounts from sex workers themselves were weighed equally with testimonies from anti-sex work, anti-trafficking advocates. The Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act is a law about sex work, not trafficking — but human trafficking dominated the conversation.

Because the discourse around trafficking and sex work has become extremely polarized, it might appear nearly impossible to be anti-human trafficking and support sex workers’ rights simultaneously.

But at SWAN, that is what we do every day. For us, addressing trafficking and upholding the rights of sex workers are not mutually exclusive goals.

Immigrant and migrant sex workers experience multi-layered stigma and criminalization that makes it incredibly risky for them to access mainstream services.

On top of the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act, the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations prohibit temporary residents (anyone without permanent residency or citizenship) from working in the sex industry, placing migrant sex workers at risk of arrest, detention and deportation. This creates an environment in which the women we serve fear law enforcement even more than predators. As a result, predators are emboldened to target them without fear of consequences, and women are left with little recourse when they are assaulted, robbed or raped.

Sex workers’ rights advocates do have one thing in common with anti-trafficking advocates who are also anti-sex work: we all want to ensure the safety and well-being of people who are being exploited.

And if that’s the goal, then we need to acknowledge that criminalizing sex work to fight trafficking is not working. Instead, criminalization causes serious harm to sex workers. This is acknowledged in the recent parliamentary review report on PCEPA.

With complex issues, it’s tempting to look at things as if they are black and white — but with issues like trafficking and sex work, almost everything is grey. If we try to oversimplify these complex issues, we often wind up getting the wrong answers, even if we mean well.

We need to embrace the complexity and nuance, and be open to solutions that might contradict our personal feelings about sex work.

Solutions like decriminalizing sex work.

Decriminalization would allow access to legal and labour protections and open up opportunities for sex workers to access justice when they are faced with violence and exploitation before situations evolve into trafficking. For the women SWAN serves, decriminalization also includes repealing the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations that put them at risk of arrest and deportation.

After two decades supporting immigrant and migrant sex workers, and victims of trafficking, decriminalization is the solution SWAN supports as the best way to ensure the safety and well-being of the women we serve. [Tyee]

Sun, 2022-11-20 12:05

#82

Pondering

From the previous post..

But this is not an issue that requires a “both sides” approach — people who are anti-sex work should not be given space to comment on violence against sex workers.

Many former prostitutes are against prostitution and consider themselves survivors yet they shouldn't be allow to even speak. Anyone should feel free to speak on this topic or any other. The pro-prostitution lobby is very aggressive in attempting to silence the voices of prostitutes who feel victimized or anyone who disagrees with them. That's chilling. It makes the organization suspect to me.

I just posted this in my previous post:

But please do not continue to sweep us under the rug out of convenience. We are human beings too. We feel and think, too. And we are silent because of you.....We, the more marginalized, are often too scared to speak out. Whenever we tell you about our struggles in the sex industry, you keep telling us: “Oh well, you’re just not suited for the job! Get a new one!”

I don't see why only people promoting a free market capitalist approach to prostitution should be heard. The constant attempts at silencing any disgreement tells me they are trying to cover up the truth of the industry.

There are two claims being made.

The harms of prostitution, the violence, the exploitation, the trafficking, can be prosecuted separate from prostitution. The onus is on police to protect prostitutes from that harm.
As long as the criminal elements are removed there is no harm done.

Survivors say there is intrinsic harm aside from the criminal acts. It is not a given that the industry can be successfully policed to prevent exploitation.

Sun, 2022-11-20 14:41

#83

JKR

Why Sex Workers Are Suing the Canadian Government—Again; Chatelaine; Nov 16, 2022

Current sex work laws in Canada make it impossible for sex workers to make a living without discrimination.

Sex workers and their supporters gather outside the Ontario Superior Court during the launch of their constitutional challenge to Canada's sex work laws, on Monday, October 3, 2022.

(Photo: The Canadian Press/Tijana Martin)

Li is not alone. Her experience encapsulates why a group of sex workers are suing the Canadian government (again) over the laws that criminalize their work. The Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform and six individual applicants are challenging Canada’s sex work-specific criminal offences and are seeking to strike them down on the basis that they violate sex workers’ constitutional rights.

Earlier this fall, the Alliance, which is made up of 25 sex worker rights groups from across Canada, argued in the Ontario Superior Court that the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act (PCEPA)—which is the current legislation on sex work—subjects sex workers to targeted violence, harassment, police profiling, surveillance and arrest.

PCEPA criminalizes most aspects of sex work—including communicating to obtain sexual services, placing advertisements, renting work space to sex workers, working for sex workers, and managing or hiring sex workers. While these provisions are in place, sex workers will continue to be criminalized for their work.

Didn’t sex workers already sue the Canadian government over the sex work laws?

Yes. In 2007, Terri-Jean Bedford, Valerie Scott and Amy Lebovitch took the Canadian government to court to challenge three sex-work related criminal offenses, also on the basis that the laws violated their constitutional rights. After the case wound its way through the courts for years, the Supreme Court of Canada issued a unanimous judgment in 2013 that the laws under consideration contravened sex workers’ right to liberty and security. The justices ordered the Stephen Harper government strike down the three criminal offenses, and gave parliament one year to enact the changes.

In 2014, the Harper Conservatives did as ordered and struck down those laws—but they then introduced a new set of provisions that simply reintroduced criminal penalties against sex work. Known as PCEPA, the new laws, in theory, meant that sex workers could not be charged for selling sexual services, but instead made purchasing those services illegal. The underlying idea of these laws is that sex work is inherently exploitative and violent—rather than a form of labour deserving of labour law protections—and is influenced by what is called the Nordic Model, due its use in Scandanavian countries.

The Nordic Model, also known as the End Demand Model, claims to immunize sex workers from prosecution and protect them from abuse. But in reality, sex workers are still criminalized under PCEPA for providing helpful services to other sex workers such as booking appointments, providing a workspace, or translation, driving or advertising. Even providing sex workers with vital assistance like taking down licence plate numbers and client descriptions to make sure that the client is not a known abuser is an offence.

Under PCEPA, it is impossible to provide sex work services without breaking a law. So, to claim that the current laws shield sex workers from conviction is misleading.

Why are sex workers in court again?

Sex workers’ rights organizations immediately denounced PCEPA, arguing that the most marginalized sex workers—who sell sex within very constrained circumstances due to poverty, criminalization and social discrimination—would experience the same vulnerability to discrimination and violence.

Recent research from the Centre for Gender and Sexual Health Equity has revealed that since the implementation of PCEPA, sex workers have faced higher levels of violence, reduced access to sexual health information, outreach services and condoms and a reduced ability to negotiate sexual services and screen out bad clients when compared to pre-PCEPA rates.

Criminalization as it stands in Canada still harms sex workers. At Toronto’s Butterfly, an Asian and migrant sex workers support network that has documented multiple instances where migrant sex workers have been evicted, extorted by landlords, arrested and jailed, deported, turned away from support services, had all of their savings seized by the police and had their children turn on them due to the stigma in being branded as “criminals”—whether or not they are ever charged with sex work offences. This is why sex workers are back in court.

How is this case different from the 2007 Bedford case?

The current constitutional challenge against PCEPA is different from the Bedford case in a number of important ways. First—thanks to the Canadian Alliance on Sex Work Law Reform that was founded in 2012—sex workers are more organized than they were in 2013. With greater national organization came political advocacy that was more broadly representative and intersectional.

Which leads to the second difference between the PCEPA and the Bedford case: the rise of intersectionality—a concept that recognizes that people experience discrimination differently based on multiple, overlapping social identities. As Black and Indigenous 2Spirit trans woman Monica Forrester stated in her affidavit to the court: “For myself and other Indigenous sex workers, the PCEPA is an extension of colonial laws used to control us based on who we are and what we do for work.”

As well, a wide range of human, racial and migrant justice organizations are supporting sex workers in this current challenge as intervenors—including the Black Legal Advocacy Clinic, the Migrant Workers Alliance for Change, the Ontario Coalition of Rape Crisis Centres and Amnesty International.

Third, the Bedford case established the bare minimum: that sex workers had a constitutional right to “security”—that is, a right to be protected against violence and death. But the case against PCEPA is much broader, with sex workers arguing that the criminalization of sex work discriminates against cisgender and transgender women and non-binary people while demanding the right to safety, security, life and personal and sexual autonomy.

The fight against PCEPA is a vital next step in defending the lives and dignity of sex workers. But it will take more than the courts to transform sex workers lives. It will take solidarity from a society that recognizes every sex worker’s life is worth fighting for.

Sun, 2022-11-20 17:51

#84

Pondering

https://www.thespec.com/life/health-wellness/2019/10/21/how-i-was-recrui...

For nine long, horrible years, I was trafficked in the sex industry. I was no more than "girl number four," valued only for my outward appearance and ability to please customers. I regularly saw 12 to 14 men per night. I was punched, slapped, bitten and worse, all in the name of my so-called "job." My customers wanted the porn-star experience, things that they wouldn't do with someone they loved or respected. My story is not an uncommon one.

What will be surprising to you is that during the time that I was being trafficked, I was working in licensed massage parlours in Toronto. .... Bylaw officers, police and city officials would inspect our facility, and yet it continued to operate. It made me feel that the atrocities that I was experiencing, along with the hundreds of women and girls that worked with me, were acceptable. No one appeared to care or notice that our situation was unbearable....

When I was 17 years old, a friend invited me to a strip club north of Toronto, where she'd been dancing. I pictured that it would be an easy way to make money, and empowering even, as I thought I'd be determining who I interacted with. I didn't realize then that strip clubs are often a gateway to a much darker industry.

During the months that I spent in the strip club, I was pressured to sleep with managers, who threatened to make my life a living hell if I didn't — though I couldn't imagine it getting any worse than it already was. The same went for patrons, mostly older, drooling men who wanted to handle me in the most lecherous way. I wasn't just dancing for them; I was expected to service them. You may be thinking that I was foolish to even consider trying the avenue of stripping. I wasn't foolish; I was vulnerable, naïve and a perfect target....

My trafficker didn't have to restrain me with physical chains; his skilful manipulation was enough to hold me captive. He isolated me to the point that I had no one else to turn to. Even when I knew very well that I needed to get away from him, escape seemed impossible because, by then, I feared for my life.

All this time, I lived in a very ordinary neighbourhood, in suburbia. I shopped at our malls; I went to our schools and ate next to you at local restaurants. No one noticed me. No one saw my pain.

Normalization of the sex industry denies the damage it does to women who get involved willingly. These were legal businesses. It is difficult to impossible to police what happened to this young woman. It was all consensual.

This is not an industry that can be easily policed. Workers are all independents. Everything happens in private.

Prostitution seems defacto decriminalized. It is happening within the confines of licenced businesses like strip clubs and massage parlours. Women aren't locked in rooms. They walk freely among us.

From what I can see it is very easy to get into prostitution and much harder to get out. The main things being prevented are wide-open blatant flashing signs that say "this is a brothel" and detailed explicit advertising. There is no doubt as to what's on offer at these establishments.

C 36 is holding the industry of prostitution back from expansion but it continues to flourish. There are lots of strip clubs and massage parlours and escort services.

Sun, 2022-11-20 19:31

#85

JKR

https://rabble.ca/columnists/sex-worker-movement-grows-as-constitutional-challenge-goes-to-court/

Sex worker movement grows as constitutional challenge goes to court

by Natasha DarlingNovember 7, 2022

The conflation of sex work with human trafficking is what leads to surveillance, criminalization and stigma, and ignores the lived experience of those most affected by the legislation.

"The movement of sex workers is building." Credit: Carol Leigh Scarlot Harlot / flickr

Back in the spring, I interviewed Jenn Clamen, national coordinator for the Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform about their upcoming constitutional challenge. The aim of the challenge is to decriminalize sex work in Canada. The Alliance went to court in early October to argue their case over four days of proceedings.

I read both the Alliance’s factum and both the Canadian and Ontario government’s factum in preparation for my follow-up interview with Jenn. As a layperson, the difference in language used was astounding. It’s clear that the Alliance was purposeful in using plain language wherever possible. It’s also clear that they were backing up all their claims with peer reviewed and relevant research.

The Crown took a different approach — they didn’t put the same amount of care into ensuring that a member of the public could understand their arguments. It’s also clear they used antagonistic language towards sex workers, and gaslit their expert witnesses via deliberate twisting of their research findings; I’ll get to the experts later.

The most glaring difference to me is that the Alliance is composed of 26 member groups, each of whom provide services to sex workers in their respective cities or geographical areas. They also have five individual sex workers and one former escort agency owner as an applicant. By contrast, neither the Canadian or Ontario government had a single sex worker as an applicant. Instead, their side of the argument relied heavily on evidence given by law enforcement and experts whose motives and qualifications are dubious at best. I asked Jenn about what she thinks of all this below.

Natasha Darling (ND): I wonder if you can tell me how many sex workers are affiants in the case? And how does the Alliance feel about the fact that neither the Government of Ontario or Canada presented any sex working affiants? Like, what is the logical conclusion that the readers can draw from this?

Jenn Clamen (JC): The Canadian Alliance with Sex Work law reform is one applicant. And we are 26 sex worker rights’ member groups across the country. So our sex worker rights groups across the country, are predominantly led by sex workers. And we all serve individually, all of our member groups serve thousands and thousands of sex workers. So that is representation of sex workers across the country. In addition to that, there’s six individual applicants, five of whom are sex workers, one of whom is a third party who used to own an escort agency… Then, as fact witnesses in the case we have people who, again, are not individuals…So those are, again, representations of collective sex workers. And so we decided to do it that way instead of individual sex workers – besides the individual applicants – so that we could represent a collective of experiences and have more experiences on the table, and more evidence on the table…The fact that government hasn’t brought forward anybody working in the sex industry is indicative of the fact that they’re having a very different conversation to the one that we put forward before the court. They are talking about human trafficking for the most part. And when they are talking about human trafficking, they might be talking about people who no longer work in the sex industry. So their analysis of the harms of the current regime is very limited. And the fact that all of their witnesses are police officers who are in a directly antagonistic position to people experiencing the harms of criminalization, again, is a testament to the fact that they’re having a very different conversation…They’ve made the conversation not about sex workers experiences of the law, and that’s what the conversation needs to be about. So it’s very disappointing. But it’s also very common that that happens. So it’s not surprising.

It boggles my mind; there is so much cognitive disconnect to unpack. First Parliamentarians write Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act(PCEPA) — legislation that makes it hard for sex workers to effectively screen clients, work together, advertise and hire security staff. And they’re very clear in writing these laws that the aim is to eliminate prostitution in the long term. Then, without consulting sex workers once again, they choose instead to center voices of law enforcement officials and prohibitionists.

Here’s where things get extra sinister: Cops get all sorts of funding to combat human trafficking, as do prohibitionist organizations because they believe that, eventually, sex work becomes human trafficking in the long term. This is literally the crux of the governments’ legal argument.

This conflation of sex work with human trafficking is what leads to surveillance, criminalization and stigma, and ignores the lived experience of those most affected by the legislation. If sex work is decriminalized completely, cops and prohibitionists are at risk of losing funding, and losing their jobs. If you give someone a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you give cops poorly conceived legislation, everyone involved is somehow a criminal. If you give fundamentalists a religious book, everyone becomes a sinner.

I noticed that a prohibitionist group called Defend Dignity is an intervenor for the Crown. These people are also against banning conversion therapy! This is who the government chose to help them with their case: religious fundamentalists who wish to see LTBTQ+ communities and sex workers exposed to harm because of their interpretation of the Bible. Our government is actively pursuing theocracy, mirroring our southern neighbours in the U.S.

I asked Jenn about what she thinks of the role the religious right plays.

JC: So at its core, the criminalization of sex work has always been about punishing sex workers, calling sex workers criminal before 2014. And calling sex workers victims after 2014 [Bedford decision] is the same conversation. It’s just the two sides of the same coin, because the same mechanism is being used in both cases. So we know that underneath the criminalization of sex work is a moral conversation. It’s a religious conversation in some ways, right? Because that’s what often ideas of morality are based on. And so it is not surprising that yet again, because they were there in Bedford as well, the Evangelical Fellowship is intervening on the side of the crown. It is no surprise that Defend Dignity is only on the side of the Crown… And the Parents Against Trafficking, like these are all groups that have their base and religious perspective of what sex is, what sex isn’t, what it should be, who should have it, when they should have it, how they should have it. And that’s the conversation that nobody’s having out loud. But it’s the conversation that’s happening underneath all of this. So yeah, so they’re there. And they’ve always been there and the conservative minded laws, like the PCPA. There, it’s conservative minded, because it was written by a Conservative Party, and is now being supported by the Liberal Party, who arguably are conservatives with looser ties.

In contrast to religious fundamentalists with questionable views about human rights, the Alliance has intervenors such such as Amnesty International Canadian Section (English Speaking), Black Legal Action Centre (BLAC), Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers (CARL), Canadian Civil Liberties Association (CCLA), The Enchanté Network, Migrant Workers Alliance for Change Ontario, Ontario Coalition of Rape Crisis Centres and Action Canada for Sexual Health and Rights among others. (The full list of intervenors, and a more nuanced primer of the whole challenge is here.)

Who would you rather trust to help shape our laws and public policies? Folks that willfully misinterpret one book, written by only men over 1500 years ago? Or folks with lived experience, and researchers and organizations who spend years studying to become leaders in their field? Would you rather trust law enforcement or human rights lawyers?

Even if the Alliance wins their challenge at the Ontario Superior court level, the government is likely to appeal the matter to the Supreme Court of Canada. If they don’t win the challenge, the Alliance will file an appeal. The fight for decriminalization will most likely take years. It’s daunting and tragic, that in the meantime, sex workers will continue to be harmed by laws, institutions, and bad faith actors. If the government is as concerned about keeping sex workers and marginalized communities safe from exploitation and harm as they claim, they should work to eliminate poverty, not sex work.

In recognition of the long and hard road ahead, I tried to end the interview on an uplifting note. I firmly believe that even in times of collective struggle, there is a muted undercurrent of strength, joy and power in community, as corny as that sounds.

ND: Do you think sex workers and sex work organizations are more connected with each other nowadays, compared to before Bedford?

JC: I would argue it’s not just easier, it’s just a stronger and more powerful message when you have sex workers across the country joining together to say, of course, these laws need to be struck down. So that I would say is really, really strong and really, very positive. And I appreciate you asking that because I do think that that’s one of our successes that we can’t underestimate, regardless of what happens with this court case. The movement of sex workers is building. New sex workers are feeling more confident in being out and being a part of the movement. Allies are joining. Women’s movements and women’s organizations are changing their tune in recognizing the harms of a carceral approach to sex work. And so we are definitely making progress there.

The court is expected to release its decision within six to 12 months. If you’d like to follow the Alliance and keep up to date, their Twitter handle is@cdnswalliance. You can email them to set up a donation to go towards their legal expenses at [email protected].

The above quotes from the interview with Jenn Clamen have been lightly edited for clarity.

SEX WORK

Sun, 2022-11-20 20:35

#86

Pondering

Being against conversion therapy is being against medicalizing gay youth. Gender-confused children should also be free from medicalization. The message trans and gay youth should be getting is that there is nothing wrong with them. They don't need to convert.

Prostitution lobbyists try to discredit and silence all criticism. Their theory only works in the imagination. It doesn't hold up under examination. The histronics are to distract.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ai-helps-researchers-identify-victims-11003937...

By the time she was 20, she was using heavy drugs to help mask the trauma of the abuse. That's when she met her boyfriend, who dealt drugs full-time, she says.

When she tried to break up with him after he started threatening her with violence, he showed her a news article about a woman who had been hurt "graphically" and said the last girl who broke up him experienced something similar.

"That's when his control over me started," Stevenson said.

She says she felt responsible to help cover the cost of her drug habit, and her boyfriend used that to control her.

"He said, 'You know, we really have to supplement our income … I'm not making money. You're doing too many of the drugs I'm supposed to sell. This is your fault. I need your help,'" she recalled.

Then he became physically abusive, she says.

She describes an incident at a strip club where he manhandled her onto the stage and made a deal with the club's owner, saying she couldn't leave until she "paid a deposit with [her] body."

Strip clubs are legal. Being legal doesn't prevent the above from happening. Dancers are all "independent" so club owners for the most part don't care. If a woman is willing to do it what is happening in her "personal life" is of no concern to the owner. This appears to have been a one on one relationship. Her "boyfriend" didn't have a stable of women.

Strip clubs are legal. I don't believe brothels would be more ethical.

Sun, 2022-11-20 20:59

#87

Pondering

The famous New Zealand model:

The cultural attitude that prostitution should be empowering to the women means that women are blamed for being disempowered as if they’re some kind of failure at their job or they are seen as mentally ill if they acknowledge that it’s not empowering.

https://nordicmodelnow.org/2022/11/17/on-decrim-chelsea-geddes-on-new-ze...

Jacci Stoyle: Chelsea Geddes is a prostitution survivor with 20 years’ experience in New Zealand’s fully decriminalised sex trade. She managed to escape after a prolonged struggle about a year ago and she’s a passionate writer and long-term activist against the sex trade....

Jacci: One of the claims about the New Zealand model that we often hear is that it recognizes ‘sex workers’ as workers, which means they are covered by employment law and have the same rights and protections as workers in other industries. What would you say to that? How does this work out in practice?

Chelsea: What this actually means is that prostituted women gain another pimp – the Inland Revenue Department, who wants to take a cut of the profit that pimps make in selling people for sexual use.

In brothels we aren’t covered by employment law because we fall awkwardly between definitions of employees and independent contractors. It’s disputed whose responsibility it is to pay the taxes and levies – whether that’s the job of the pimps or the prostitutes.

Because of that, there isn’t access to any of the protections of regular employment, like sick leave, the minimum wage, maternity leave, accident and emergency compensation, pensions, and protection from harassment. None of that....

Chelsea: No. Not even slightly. Not at all. There’s no safety in prostitution and especially not when buyers and pimps are decriminalised so you can’t make complaints because the police will do nothing.

Prostitution involves the sale of human rights that are supposed to be inalienable – the right to not endure torture or sexual harassment, abuse, violence and rape; the right to free expression and to fair and favourable work conditions.

All of these are missing for prostituted people and there’s no deterrent for any abusive practices or treatment of prostituted people because there’s no law enforcement against any of the people involved. Police don’t go after anyone here for any kind of involvement in prostitution whatsoever.

Jacci: We were talking yesterday about how there’s a different level of implementation of the law, where if you are assaulted or insulted at work or in a shop, or if you’re walking in the street and somebody attacks you, and you go to the police, they will recognise that this is against the law. But if you happen to be working in a brothel, the police say that it’s part of the job.

Chelsea: When I’ve gone to the police, they’ve just turned me away. One example that I used in my speech was I got concussed and mugged by a large man who was picking on another girl and I stood up for her so I got knocked out. After that I went round the corner to the police station and they turned me away. They actually told me to look in the public rubbish bins for my purse [that he’d stolen]. That was the only thing they said....

Chelsea: I was actually really shocked when I read this question because how does decriminalising make it easier to enforce any boundaries? It’s actually impossible.

If buyers were criminalised, I’d be able to call the police on them if they crossed my boundaries. The threat of that would act as a deterrent for their worse behaviours. But under decriminalisation there’s absolutely nothing I could do. Men are larger and stronger than me and I’d have to fight them off basically.

It’s against the law to not wear a condom in prostitution in New Zealand and I think there’s up to a $2,000 fine but that penalty is applied equally to the sex buyers and the prostituted person as if it were an equal decision. Whereas we know that it’s the buyers who press for no condoms and force it on the women or coerce them with more money, when they’re in a desperate situation. You’re not going to call up the police and give yourself a $2,000 fine for not using a condom – you’re just going to deal with it....

Chelsea: Firstly, this only works if you don’t need the money. Most women in prostitution in New Zealand do need the money from every client because the pay is so low, there’s pressure to not say no.

For those in a position to be a bit choosy, as they’re making enough money, that doesn’t work in a brothel because the management force you into bookings you don’t want to do and they often just arrange bookings without even telling you, let alone asking you.

It would only be if you were working on your own and were in a position of earning enough money to be able to say no, that you might then be able to turn buyers down. But you’d also have to deal with the reaction of these men to being told no. Men who buy women don’t take no for an answer, so that could be a very ugly situation to deal with on your own....

Germany will have more trafficking of women from overseas simply because it’s a larger country with land borders with other nations while New Zealand is a small island at the bottom of the world, completely isolated, and so New Zealand mostly traffics its own citizens into prostitution.

A lot of the women who are being trafficked don’t know that that is what is happening to them because it’s treated like a normal job and they’re told it’s a normal job. I myself didn’t realise that I actually fit the definition or criteria under the Palermo protocol of being a victim of trafficking. I was told all my life that it was my own fault and my choice and so I had no idea that I was trafficked. Nobody looks into that at all.

Many of the survivor accounts I read speak of feeling like it was their own fault, their chosen path.

For some women prostitution is not like giving back rubs. Normalization of prostitution increases the number of women who will fall into it thinking they will be fine.

Mon, 2022-11-21 00:26

#88

susan davis susan davis's picture

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/superior-court-hearing-decriminalization-of-sex-work-canada-1.6604546

A coalition of sex workers and advocacy groups began presenting arguments on Monday in a landmark Superior Court hearing that they hope will lead to the full decriminalization of sex work in Canada.

Over the next five days, the groups will make their case in a downtown Toronto courtroom that sex workers are being harmed and exploited, and that they are not protected under the current laws.

In 2013, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in Canada v. Bedford that three criminal prohibitions on prostitution were unconstitutional because they caused harm to sex workers and contravened sex workers' rights to liberty and security.

The groups argue that instead of recognizing sex workers' rights and well-being by decriminalizing sex work, the federal government created a set of criminal laws called the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act (PCEPA) that reproduce those same harms.

"PCEPA criminalizes communicating to sell sexual services in public, communicating to purchase sexual services in any context, facilitating or receiving a benefit related to the purchase of someone else's sexual services, and advertising sexual services," the coalition argues.

"Sex workers are criminalized, stigmatized and discriminated against under PCEPA," the groups say.

The coalition argues that many sex workers are:

Forced into isolation.
Exposed to the risk of eviction and unable to access safe indoor workplaces.
Prevented from meaningfully communicating with clients to access information related to their health, safety, and ability to refuse or consent to sex.

Mon, 2022-11-21 00:28

#89

susan davis susan davis's picture

https://www.catie.ca/positive-side/sex-work-and-the-law-in-canada

When the government criminalizes sex work, it stops sex workers from accessing safer working conditions, housing, healthcare and social and legal services. It also prevents sex workers from asserting their labour rights and improving their working conditions. By framing sex work as something that is harmful to society, criminalization fuels stigma and discrimination against sex workers and their clients. It also fuels the over-policing of sex work and erotic business establishments like body-rub parlours and strip clubs. As a result, some groups that oppose sex work now advocate for shutting down Asian massage parlours.

Criminalization threatens all sex workers in every sector of sex work. It particularly threatens sex workers of colour, Indigenous sex workers, sex workers who use drugs, trans sex workers, low-income and homeless sex workers, and sex workers with precarious immigration status. In Canada, PCEPA is having a disastrous effect on sex workers’ lives and livelihoods. It denies them their fundamental human rights, including the right to have control over their own body and sexual activity. It makes them targets for surveillance and racial profiling. They face the unwanted and unsolicited presence of police in their lives, which brings a constant threat of being arrested, charged, detained, deported, imprisoned and having a criminal record. Even if sex workers are not actually charged, arrested or deported, attention from police can have other effects: it can mean being evicted from working and living spaces, targeted for violence by neighbours or partners, and devalued as a community member and skilled worker. Ultimately PCEPA is an assault on sex workers’ legal, financial and bodily autonomy.

Mon, 2022-11-21 00:31

#90

susan davis susan davis's picture

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/amnesty-international-publishes-policy-and-research-on-protection-of-sex-workers-rights/

Amnesty International publishes policy and research on protection of sex workers’ rights

“If a customer is bad you need to manage it yourself to the end. You only call the police if you think you are going to die. If you call the police, you lose everything.”

–Sex worker in Norway

Amnesty International is today publishing its policy on protecting sex workers from human rights violations and abuses, along with four research reports on these issues in Papua New Guinea, Hong Kong, Norway and Argentina.

“Sex workers are at heightened risk of a whole host of human rights abuses including rape, violence, extortion and discrimination. Far too often they receive no, or very little, protection from the law or means for redress,” said Tawanda Mutasah, Amnesty International’s Senior Director for Law and Policy.

“Our policy outlines how governments must do more to protect people who do sex work from violations and abuse. Our research highlights their testimony and the daily issues they face.”

Policy

Amnesty International’s policy is the culmination of extensive worldwide consultations, a considered review of substantive evidence and international human rights standards and first-hand research, carried out over more than two years.

Its formal adoption and publication follows a democratic decision made by Amnesty International’s global movement in August 2015, available here, which was reported widely at the time.

The policy makes several calls on governments including for them to ensure protection from harm, exploitation and coercion; the participation of sex workers in the development of laws that affect their lives and safety; an end to discrimination and access to education and employment options for all.

It recommends the decriminalization of consensual sex work, including those laws that prohibit associated activities—such as bans on buying, solicitation and general organization of sex work. This is based on evidence that these laws often make sex workers less safe and provide impunity for abusers with sex workers often too scared of being penalized to report crime to the police. Laws on sex work should focus on protecting people from exploitation and abuse, rather than trying to ban all sex work and penalize sex workers.

The policy reinforces Amnesty International’s position that forced labour, child sexual exploitation and human trafficking are abhorrent human rights abuses requiring concerted action and which, under international law, must be criminalized in every country

Mon, 2022-11-21 00:33

#91

susan davis susan davis's picture

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/publications/ten-reasons-decriminalize-sex-work

Sex work is criminalized not only through prohibitions on selling sexual services, but also through laws that prohibit the solicitation of sex, living off the earnings of sex work, brothel-keeping, or the purchase of sexual services. By reducing the freedom of sex workers to negotiate condom use with clients, organize for fair treatment, and publicly advocate for their rights, criminalization and aggressive policing have been shown to increase sex workers' vulnerability to violence, extortion, and health risks.

This document provides ten reasons why decriminalizing sex work is the best policy for promoting health and human rights of sex workers, their families, and communities. Removing criminal prosecution of sex work goes hand-in-hand with recognizing sex work as work and protecting the rights of sex workers through workplace health and safety standards. Decriminalizing sex work means sex workers are more likely to live without stigma, social exclusion, and fear of violence.

Mon, 2022-11-21 00:38

#92

susan davis susan davis's picture

https://www.aclu.org/news/topic/its-time-to-decriminalize-sex-work

The criminalization of sex work makes sex workers more vulnerable to violence on the job and less likely to report violence. It prevents sex workers from accessing health care and other critical services, feeds an out of control mass incarceration system, and further marginalizes some of society’s most vulnerable groups, such as trans women of color and immigrants.

Sex workers deserve the same legal protections as anybody else. They should be able to maintain their livelihood without fear of violence or arrest, access health care and other services without discrimination, and seek justice when they are harmed. Decriminalization would help bring sex workers out of the dangerous margins and into the light where people are protected — not targeted — by the law.

https://www.aclu.org/report/sex-work-decriminalization-answer-what-resea...

Mon, 2022-11-21 00:40

#93

susan davis susan davis's picture

https://www.hilltimes.com/story/2022/06/29/laws-must-be-repealed-and-sex-work-must-be-decriminalized-immediately/270860/

Laws must be repealed and sex work must be decriminalized immediately

Instead of fully decriminalizing sex work as the decision implied, Parliament instead fully criminalized sex work for the first time in Canadian history in 2014 under the ideological—and absurd—notion that sex workers are inherently exploited and that sex work can be eradicated through criminalization.

Mon, 2022-11-21 00:42

#94

susan davis susan davis's picture

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/decreasing-human-trafficking-through-sex-work-decriminalization/2017-01

In order to decrease human trafficking, health care workers should support the full decriminalization of prostitution. Similar to trafficking in other forms of labor, preventing trafficking in the sex trade requires addressing the different forms of marginalization that create vulnerable communities. By removing punitive laws that prevent reporting of exploitation and abuse, decriminalization allows sex workers to work more safely, thereby reducing marginalization and vulnerability. Decriminalization can also help destigmatize sex work and help resist political, social, and cultural marginalization of sex workers.

Mon, 2022-11-21 00:45

#95

susan davis susan davis's picture

https://www.leaf.ca/news/leaf-proposes-an-evidence-and-human-rights-based-approach-to-sex-work-law-reform-in-canada/

LEAF proposes an evidence- and human rights-based approach to sex work law reform in Canada

Decriminalizing sex work in Canada is an important and necessary first step to realizing the full rights and agency of sex workers, says the Women’s Legal Education and Action Fund (LEAF).

LEAF has published a position paper proposing an evidence- and human rights-based approach to sex work law reform in Canada. In it, LEAF calls for the full decriminalization of sex work done by adults in Canada.

Currently, Canadian law criminalizes many aspects of sex work, including the purchase of sexual services and materially benefitting from someone doing sex work.

“LEAF is concerned about the impact of criminalization on sex workers, many of whom are gendered and racialized and face other intersecting systemic barriers, such as transphobia, ableism, and poverty,” said Pam Hrick, Executive Director & General Counsel of LEAF. “Evidence shows that criminalization and the targeting resulting from it can lead to loss of housing, custody, and income supports for sex workers. The harms resulting from law enforcement’s interventions are especially pronounced for Black, Indigenous, and racialized sex workers.”

LEAF is also concerned about the conflation of sex work with trafficking in the current laws. This conflation is widely criticized by experts as being harmful to both sex workers and trafficking victims/survivors.

In this context, LEAF supports and amplifies longstanding demands from sex workers and sex workers’ rights organizations for decriminalization. LEAF recommends that Canada repeal all sex work-specific provisions in the Criminal Code applicable to sex work done by adults and repeal immigration laws that prohibit temporary residents and foreign nationals from working in the sex industry. Fully decriminalizing sex work is an important first step for sex workers to exercise their rights – including their rights to autonomy, dignity, and equality.

Mon, 2022-11-21 18:24

#96

Pondering

https://nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/myth-amnestys-resear...

But instead Amnesty chose to conduct research in Papua New Guinea, Argentina, and Hong Kong, which all have prohibition, and in Norway, which introduced the Nordic Model in 2009. There was no significant support within the Amnesty community for prohibition, in which all parties are criminalised, so there was no obvious purpose for this amount of effort and research being conducted in countries with this system.

It is particularly reprehensible that Amnesty didn’t commission any research anywhere that has the full decriminalisation approach, which they were determined to see as policy and now recommend to governments all over the world....

If Amnesty had been sincere in researching the effectiveness of the Nordic Model, it would have conducted research in Sweden, which pioneered the approach and has had the greatest political will to implement all that’s needed to make the system successful, including: public information campaigns; education in schools; investment in exit services; training for the police and prosecutors; and employment and training opportunities for women....

Interviews were conducted in Oslo over three weeks between November 2014 and February 2015. There is no record of the interview questions and, worryingly, interviewees were not asked to sign consent forms, but were merely requested to provide “verbal consent.”

We are told that Amnesty “spoke with” 30 women who had experience selling sex, but not who in Amnesty spoke with them, whether they were male or female, or what relevant training they had had. Nor are we told where the interviews took place, or who else was present, or what measures were taken to help the interviewees feel comfortable and to ensure their safety. There is no information about which languages the interviews were conducted in, whether interpreters were needed, and if so, whether they were male or female.

Of the 30 women, we know the following: about one third had exited prostitution; three were transgender; three described being trafficked; and 23 were migrants, many with only three-month tourist permits.

The women were identified by three organisations, one of which, PION, is a member of the Global Network of Sex Work Projects (NSWP), whose members all endorse the view that prostitution is work, and are ideologically opposed to the Nordic Model. It is not clear what steps, if any, Amnesty took to ensure that interviewees, particularly those introduced by PION, were able to speak freely. Similarly, we are not told whether the interviews were recorded or whether notes were taken, and if so, by whom.

We are not told how old the women were (at the time of interview or when they entered prostitution), how long they were involved in prostitution, what had led to their involvement, or what the nature of their involvement was. Nor are we told what they most needed help with, how the Nordic Model had affected them, or whether it had helped them in any way (for example, whether they had taken advantage of the exiting services).

Of the 30 women, only 16 are quoted in the report. All of the quotes support Amnesty’s position. However, there is evidence that some of the women interviewed disagreed with that position. For example, Agnete Strøm reports that a Nigerian woman spoke out in the Norwegian media shortly after the publication of the report to say that she was interviewed as part of the research. She said she’d told the interviewer that she supports the Nordic Model and that the police had helped her escape her pimp. However, Amnesty did not quote her or include her testimony.

Shoddy research unless someone can contradict the above. For a subject so polarizing there is very little hard research to go on.

Mon, 2022-11-21 19:05

#97

JKR

It seems to me there are tens of thousands of sex workers we can listen to as part of qualitative research.

Mon, 2022-11-21 23:59

#98

susan davis susan davis's picture

that statement about amnesty is a blatant lie.... they went all over Canada, the US, Europe and of course the global south..... Nordic now are NOT any kind of reliable resource...

Who has more credibility....?

Did you even bother to look at amnesty's report? they talk all about who they engaged.... no

you took to word of your compatriots in abolition without even looking at the link i shared...

and then call their perspective "truth"

that's why it's a complete waste of time sharing anything with you, you refuse to read any of it unless it supports your perspective.

from amnesty's page -

Its formal adoption and publication follows a democratic decision made by Amnesty International’s global movement in August 2015, available here, which was reported widely at the time.

at the top of the same page it states;

Amnesty International is today publishing its policy on protecting sex workers from human rights violations and abuses, along with four research reports on these issues in Papua New Guinea, Hong Kong, Norway and Argentina.

clearly seperate reports about those specific regions....

but thank you for once again trying to bolster your own position by manipulating the iformation I provide when it suits you

Amnesty / anti sex work crusader group.....?

i know who i believe

Tue, 2022-11-22 09:08

#99

Pondering

Of course sex workers are going to say they want it fully decriminalized. Migrants are going to say they want no borders. That doesn't mean either situation is best for the target country.

Examples in Canada are the best predictors of what would happen here if brothels were to become fully legalized. Strip clubs are out of control.

50 years ago stripers made 10$ a table dance. Now they make 10$ a lap dance. I don't know of any other form of labour in which you get more for the same price you were paying 50 years ago. They have to do 3 stage dances for free.

Strip clubs are 100% decriminalized right here in Canada. We don't have to look at any other countries or study any complicated reports or arguments to predict what would happen here.

I am told sex worker organizations know best so just do what they say. I listen to what people have to say but I look at the evidence.

Tue, 2022-11-22 12:19

#100

kropotkin1951

Of course sex workers are going to say they want it fully decriminalized. Migrants are going to say they want no borders. That doesn't mean either situation is best for the target country.

We have a Charter of Rights in Canada that applies to sex workers but not migrants, until they actually make it to Canada. You don't even think sex workers should have equal rights. Temperance women sounded the same about tavern owners. Far better for the country to have prohibition because it will make the men stop beating their wives. Pity the poor BC soldiers in WWI who when they went to war women's suffrage was partly implemented and the pro-temperance nutjobs pushed for and held a prohibition referendum. Making rules to restrain other peoples behavior is a right wing religious world view and usually leads to worse outcomes.

Tue, 2022-11-22 12:33

(Reply to #100) #101

JKR

Pondering wrote:

Of course sex workers are going to say they want it fully decriminalized.

It makes sense that people don’t want to be unfairly criminalized.

the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act

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