Is it insensitive to muslims to use "mecca" as an expression?

Are you being facetious?

-SLd

[ 24 June 2008: Message edited by: SLd ]

Not to be too dismissive, but who cares?

I don't see anyone wringing their hands wondering if saying "Jesus Fucking Christ" is offensive to Xians.

Well ok,...I'm not sure why you'd think that.

Hey 500_Apples, what does "offensive" mean?

The idea that a normal person of any (or no) faith would be "offended" by a harmless expression is a bit condescending to that person - isn't it? Doesn't it imply that their religion is so overpowering that they feel bad even when no offence is intended?

"Mecca" isn't a racist or sexist or xenophobic term. If I say "God almighty", do I have to worry about whether someone in the room will have a heart attack?

In fact, why would you ask a question like this about "Muslims" in the first place? Do you think they take their religion more to heart than others in our society?

Your opening posts raises lots of questions for me, quite apart from the one you asked.

What unionist said.

Is it "insensitive" to say that you don't think a certain strategy is "kosher" when there are Jews in the room, observant or not?

Is it "insensitive" to say that we're sick and tired of the MSM crucifying the NDP every chance they get? Which precise sects of Christianity would it be insensitive to?

Do I need to do a faith audit before suggesting that if the mountain won't come to Mohammed, maybe Mohammed should come to the mountain?

Is it insensitive to say to a biologist, when visiting an art gallery: "I believe this is one of the most intelligent designs I've seen in a long time"?

You know, Michelle, I think that posing the question itself may very well be insensitive to Muslims. It sounds like: "Are Muslims hypersensitive?" "Is that what Islam does to them?"

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
[b]Hey 500_Apples, what does "offensive" mean?

The idea that a normal person of any (or no) faith would be "offended" by a harmless expression is a bit condescending to that person - isn't it? Doesn't it imply that their religion is so overpowering that they feel bad even when no offence is intended?

"Mecca" isn't a racist or sexist or xenophobic term. If I say "God almighty", do I have to worry about whether someone in the room will have a heart attack?

In fact, why would you ask a question like this about "Muslims" in the first place? Do you think they take their religion more to heart than others in our society?

Your opening posts raises lots of questions for me, quite apart from the one you asked.[/b]

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Perhaps what could very well be an earnest inquiry, is also represenative of the effects of the growing Islamaphobia now entrenched in this country.

It could also stem from the idea that is perpetuated by the ruling class and racists alike; that there are "Good Muslims" and "Bad Muslims?"
Taking the stereotypes and ignorance even further

- the bad Muslims would be the kind that would become or are, suicide bombers, women beaters, "fundementalists" who live and die by a dogmatic and tyranical and obtuse faith. The bad Muslim would be mortally offended upon hearing his motherland used in infidel dialog, further cementing his image as a monster and relic from less freedom loving societies than that of Canada.

- the "Good Muslims" on the other hand have become well assimilated in Canadian multicultural (capitalist) society, are of lighter skin, speak fluent English, are University educated, laugh at their own tarnished faith and think that Little Mosque on the Prairie is a delightfully funny and intelligent show.

Whether it's on screen or in person, it never amazes me how easy it is to decipher genuine interest from the bullshit.

-SLd

I don't get why people are attacking 500_Apples here. No one is assuming that Muslims are more sensitive than other people. No one is suggesting that if you offend a Muslim, he's going to strap on a suicide bomb - in fact, it's pretty offensive of you to imply that this was where 500_Apples was coming from, SLd.

It's simply a question about politeness and figuring out whether a phrase is offensive. Different religions have different things that are offensive and things that aren't.

For observant Christians, using God's name in vain is offensive. Does that mean you are REQUIRED never to do it in front of a Christian? No, of course not. I'm free to offend anyone I want with my speech, and I sometimes do. But that doesn't change the fact that, to Christians, saying "Jesus Christ!" or, for more observant Christians, "Oh my God!" is an offensive or insensitive thing to say, and something that they would likely refrain from saying themselves.

On the other hand, saying, "That's my cross to bear" is a religious allusion that, from my experience, does not offend even religious Christians, and is something that they would feel free saying.

So the question 500_Apples is asking is whether or not using "Mecca" in the manner he does above is culturally or religiously insensitive or offensive to Muslims. It's a reasonable question. I don't see why people feel the need to attack him about it. If you don't want to know the answer, or don't have an answer to give him, then why are you here? Aren't there a thousand other threads for you to read?

Also: personal attacks are not allowed on this site. Something for you to keep in mind, SLd.

[ 25 June 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]I don't get why people are attacking 500_Apples here. No one is assuming that Muslims are more sensitive than other people. No one is suggesting that if you offend a Muslim, he's going to strap on a suicide bomb - in fact, it's pretty offensive of you to imply that this was where 500_Apples was coming from, SLd.

It's simply a question about politeness and figuring out whether a phrase is offensive. Different religions have different things that are offensive and things that aren't.

For observant Christians, using God's name in vain is offensive. Does that mean you are REQUIRED never to do it in front of a Christian? No, of course not. I'm free to offend anyone I want with my speech, and I sometimes do. But that doesn't change the fact that, to Christians, saying "Jesus Christ!" or, for more observant Christians, "Oh my God!" is an offensive or insensitive thing to say, and something that they would likely refrain from saying themselves.

On the other hand, saying, "That's my cross to bear" is a religious allusion that, from my experience, does not offend even religious Christians, and is something that they would feel free saying.

So the question 500_Apples is asking is whether or not using "Mecca" in the manner he does above is culturally or religiously insensitive or offensive to Muslims. It's a reasonable question. I don't see why people feel the need to attack him about it. If you don't want to know the answer, or don't have an answer to give him, then why are you here? Aren't there a thousand other threads for you to read?

Also: personal attacks are not allowed on this site. Something for you to keep in mind, SLd.

[ 25 June 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ][/b]

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RE: Michelle -

Nobody is being "attacked" and everyone has the equal right to either challenge ideas or not. From my perspective, it's you that needs to step back (mod or not)and let the thread takes it's course.

The tone of your intervention in this thread, is not a new thing and you have been challenged on it before by others. While I must respect the time and effort you (along with other mods) put into maintaining this website, please do not confuse healthy polemicizing with all out "ad-hominem rhetoric" 'Apples is doing just fine on his own, and I for one am actaully starting to appreciate where he was actaully coming from. His remark on critics of Freud and rorschach tests made me laugh out loud (very smart retort!) and I'm not such a big shit that I can't laugh at myself.

However, while I'm not a practicing Muslim, nor have I been for a long long time, I'm well aware of the fact, that the the question posed by 500_Apples, comes in a time and environment of exceptional scrutiny / misunderstanding / sensitivity and full-blow Islamaphobia (not to mention a counter-productive, or reactionary over compensative handling of Muslim related topics is all prevalent). I believe what he tagged as "severe over-analyzing" I look at, as putting things into context, or the specific objective conditions of the times.

RE:Stargazer

I believe that your comments about "Policing," are equally if not more, off base, then the so-called PC/oversensitivity/personal attack that is apparently going on here. This is a chat-board, not a bar room laden with broken bottles and guns hidden under waistbands, so I suggesting to check your finger pointing and melodrama.

Your idea of "multiculturalism" is far different than mine. I see it as nothing more than PR that was developed under colonization of this country, to further shroud systemic racism of Indigenous peoples so rest assured, that my own comments have nothing to do with "multiculturalism"

With both of your recent comments, I am beginning to get a better idea of the degeneration that occurred in the Anti-Racist thread, where "holier-than-though" type retorts were slung, every time someone put our a direct or aggressive challenge to someone else. TO ME, the tone of this thread, suggests that opinions expressed, ARE IN FACT, very relevant. Once again 'Apples is doing fine, and isn't crying bloody murder.

I believe heads need to:

1.) Be more careful of throwing "policing" around on this on this board. Despite it being a haven for social-democrats, there are a lot of political organizers and activists alike, and the terminology could very well spook a lot people unnecessarily, and is dangerously close to another kind of attack - "bad jacketing"

2.) Be more understanding that confrontation on the web, is not a bad thing.

3.) Be aware that in-light of how REAL slander that goes on in other threads and are directly focussed on individuals and organizations by name, go unchecked, moderator intervention in issues of this insignificance, is more than a little inconsistent.

4.) Understand that if you are going to throw around political terminology, then use it correctly. "Fascist" is less about pure censorship and more in keeping with a specific set of economic conditions. People throw this word around so much, it's become as empty as "democracy."

On a personal note, having lots of experience with progressive-type people who I know for a fact, are condescending to the point of petty-attack, when it comes to issues pertaining to Islam, I am well aware of the climate in this country. The Muslim community at large in Canada has a target on it's back as a result of blow-back from the legitimately inhumane actions of some proclaiming adherence to Islam, AS WELL (and far more so), as the programmatic / systemic attacks on those who practice Islam. The intervention of of Michelle and Stargazer seems far more in keeping with inappropriateness, than any quips on mine or anyone else's part. I would finally, suggest again, to visit the comments put forward by Makwa as I think the content of this thread would fall under the category of "anti-racist" topics.

With that, I'm giving 'Apples a intraweb hug, kiss and apology...and I'm out.

-SLd

Hey SLD, do you think I'm white you sanctimonious ass?

Jesus, you take the cake.

I just did what seemed like the logical thing and asked a couple of muslims I work with, and had an interesting discussion. I think both of these people would describe themselves as muslim, but leading somewhat secular lives.

Anyway, they both said that the use of the word Mecca in that sense would at least internally raise an eyebrow, though neither of them would make an issue of it. Gratuitous use of the term would, in their mind compromise what in their religion is a symbol of purity. They did say that they would certainly also take into account context and intent, thus where offense is not meant, it should really not be taken.

One related a story of when she was in labour, and was being assisted by a very christian nurse. She said she shouted "oh god" or some such thing, and this nurse, mid-contraction, took offense. The point of her story was that you have to be a bit reasonable sometimes.

Anyway, I was a bit suprised that both of these people, whom I have known for some time, said that there would be occasion for offense in the term.

Never hurts to ask, eh?

quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]Hey SLD, do you think I'm white you sanctimonious ass?

Jesus, you take the cake.[/b]

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Hey Stargazer, the personal attack rule goes for you too. Please don't.

SLd, you might want to check your assumption that everyone here is white. This is twice now that you've assumed that, and been wrong. Your condescending tone is understandably annoying people.

Hey STD, fuck off you POS. How do you like that?

Over and out.

Damn, you beat me by 2 seconds!

I'm so sorry Michelle. God I just hate it when people start in on Babble, attack the moderating, attack other people (I've done this myself many times I know) but to be a newbie and start this?

The bottom line is, you guys do a hard job, and Michelle, you speak your mind, and it seriously pisses me off when some people question your moderating abilities. It's like they have nothing to add, so why not attack the moderator. You're a woman, and to some I think that makes you an easy target.

Damn I am sorry, I had three drinks last night and massive anxiety attacks from being downtown and this is the result.

Imagine what my poor boyfriend is going through.

quote:

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Damn I am sorry, I had three drinks last night and massive anxiety attacks from being downtown ...

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What do you mean by "being downtown"?

Could such a term be considered offensive to inner-city dwellers?

Sorry. I didn't know about that. I just got back from reading on the "First Nations" thread that Stargazer is aboriginal, which makes my comment really sound dumb.