PEI Election April 23 2019

Pogo wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

As for Manitoba the difference in seats per population for the 4 Atlantic Canadian provinces and Manitoba is minimal. Atlantic Canada has abaout double the seats and population. Saskatchewan with a slightly lower population does a little better than Manitoba.

As to Pondering saying that was the deal and those are the breaks. A deal can become unfair over time. Quebec joined confederation as a part of the Britich Commonwealth, queens english and all.  Nobody (except my brother probably) will argue that this was the deal and everyone should just live with it.

  I mentioned three measures, HofC, Senate and First Ministers.  You focussed on one.  Senators (30 versus 6) and First ministers (4 versus 1)

Even if the constitution is reopened no province will willingly give up power in either the HoC nor the Senate. Its citizens would be outraged. 

I don't think the consitution should be reopened for decades to come. 

Pondering wrote:

Pogo wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

As for Manitoba the difference in seats per population for the 4 Atlantic Canadian provinces and Manitoba is minimal. Atlantic Canada has abaout double the seats and population. Saskatchewan with a slightly lower population does a little better than Manitoba.

As to Pondering saying that was the deal and those are the breaks. A deal can become unfair over time. Quebec joined confederation as a part of the Britich Commonwealth, queens english and all.  Nobody (except my brother probably) will argue that this was the deal and everyone should just live with it.

  I mentioned three measures, HofC, Senate and First Ministers.  You focussed on one.  Senators (30 versus 6) and First ministers (4 versus 1)

Even if the constitution is reopened no province will willingly give up power in either the HoC nor the Senate. Its citizens would be outraged. 

I don't think the consitution should be reopened for decades to come. 

Also -- Arguably there is also no objective way to measure clout - the Senate and the House are not equal and the value of having a separate Premier and government vs being a part of a larger province is hard to quantify. The organization into provinces is also a complicated matter as it is more than admisistrative.

I was offended upthread about the idea that PEI could be suggested to be erased and said the people there ought to have a say. I took for granted that people would understand what I meant -- let me be more clear:

The national government is not above the provinces in status like the provinces are senior to cities. A province in many ways is not much different than a country in terms of power or identity. If we accept the self determination of countries ANd we accept self determination of provinces (as we do in Canada) this right is not just about seperating from Canada were a province to want to leave but also for remaining as a province.

The self determination of peoples apart from provinces is also something with widespread support here in theory. but it can be controversial. The reason is this is a partnership with rights and numbers. Say for example Northern Ontario wanted to be its own province (this does come up at times - or wanting to join Manitoba): If Norther Ontario went on its own, this changes the number of provinces, the relative rights of those provinces. Some might like to see a smaller Ontario (I think that would be a good thing) while others might feel that the people of Ontario would now be getting two votes in the federation. But still shouldn't the people of Northern Ontario get to decide that?

We seem to have a consensus here on Babble that Quebec or BC or Alberta have the right to cecede. to suggest they don't would produce howls of anger. Yet the idea that a province could be erased as a province was raised (especially the way it was) and when I responded as offended this was not understood as legitimate. How does an Altantic Province not have the same right to self determination as a larger province? Is it about size? Do you ahve to be a certain size to have these rights?

Then what about self determination of Indigenous peoples? This does not come up often since their lands have been occupied and cut up (much like what happened to the Palestinians I might add). But Indigenous nations also ought to have the right to self determination acknowledged -- they want to govern themselves differently than what the rest of Canada wants to impose and they have that right.  Let's consider Nunavut for a moment -- if it wanted to be independent to pursue its own resources -- despite the low population -- it too has that right. I was surpirsed to see anyone here think to deny this for any in Canada.

Pondering wrote:

I don't think anyone was suggesting we have the power to force a change and simply declare PEI no longer a province. I think people are just noting that logically PEI really shouldn't be a separate province given its size and population. If Canada was being created as a whole from scratch now PEI probably wouldn't have provincial status. 

But it isn't, so we have a legal framework that we must work within. 

The change was suggested as something that should be done -- more to the point interest in PEI was questionned as a waste of time. This while we have interest in many countries outside Canada.

I would not have been offended if it had been put as ideally it not been a seperate province becuase I would ahve agreed with that and have actually said that here before. It is another thing to say the place does not matter and should not be a province.

For the haters -- no worries it is a sanbar and will be gone as a single island due to climate change soon.. (Maybe 100 years or less )

Conceding on election night is merely a symbolic gesture with absolutely no Constitutional ramifications.

Sean the hilarious part of my "hatred" of the East is that I was born in NB and have spent lots of time in the area. My maternal ancestry in Acadia goes back to 1626. I have read extensively on Acadian history and love the Maritimes. That does not change the fact that I live on an Island that is larger and far greater populated. PEI citizens actually have more representatives than me and my neighbours. The history of PEI is like the history of the rest of Canada in that it is imperialist to its core. The British stole the Island from the Acadians and at Confederation the biggest question was how to get rid of the parasites who had been given the spoils.

Prior to the British the local Acadians and their relatives who were refugees from the mainland were deported. The idea that the genocidal British rule on Ilse Saint Jean has been a good thing is just another matter of perspective and viewpoint.

The Ile Saint-Jean Campaign was a series of military operations in fall 1758, during the Seven Years' War, to deport the Acadians who either lived on Ile Saint-Jean (present-day Prince Edward Island) or had taken refuge there from earlier deportation operations. Lieutenant-Colonel Andrew Rollo led a force of 500 British troops (including James Rogers leading his company of Rogers Rangers) to take possession of Ile Saint-Jean.[2][3] The percentage of deported Acadians who died during this expulsion made it the deadliest of all the deportations during the Expulsion (1755–1762). The total number of Acadians deported during this campaign was second only to that of the Bay of Fundy Campaign (1755).[4]

Pondering wrote:

I don't think anyone was suggesting we have the power to force a change and simply declare PEI no longer a province. I think people are just noting that logically PEI really shouldn't be a separate province given its size and population. If Canada was being created as a whole from scratch now PEI probably wouldn't have provincial status. 

But it isn't, so we have a legal framework that we must work within. 

This comment comes closest to where I was coming from when making my comment that stirred the hornets nest. 

Sean makes good albeit obvious comments. We all know that the charter is impossible to change, so any arrangement involving any province would be a constitutional nightmare. 

But when it comes to Indigenous people’s, they get shafted robbed ignored and forgotten. 

oh so it's ok to attack AB or BC but not points east?

been following Sean's smack towards Kropotkin it's bs.

western provinces are treated unfairly and Kropotkins points on Acadia were on point with my family's experiences of  forced relocation, lies and colonialism by Britain.

quizzical wrote:

oh so it's ok to attack AB or BC but not points east?

been following Sean's smack towards Kropotkin it's bs.

western provinces are treated unfairly and Kropotkins points on Acadia were on point with my family's experiences of  forced relocation, lies and colonialism by Britain.

 

Quizzical you are better than this.

I have always been with you whenever anyone attacks any province in the West. I have never supported any attack on any part of Canada. Period.

I did not attack Kropotkin stating your experience- I merely pointed out that it was not the point being made and that it is not unique to one part of the country. It is most famous becuase it is Europeans. What has happened in other parts of the country are no less serious -- forced relocations of Indigenous people, also Chinese and Japanese in the West. There is no part of the country that can start to claim superiority.

I absolutely detest Kropotkin's efforts to turn this into a competition for pain from colonialism between one part of Canada and another. It stinks and that was what this poster was trying to do.

Pondering wrote:

PEI is not getting insulted by saying it is so small it doesn't make sense that it is a province and Vancouver is not, or saying that it shouldn't be a separate province. Concerning the history of PEI no one is saying the history of the other provinces is any cleaner. 

 I can't count the number of times I've been told Quebec should just go. I live in Quebec but that isn't insulting me. It's making a political statement. 

You are making a big deal out of a flippant comment made in passing. You are taking insult on behalf of other people who like me might not be so insulted. You have a right to your opinion that the comments were insulting to PEI but not to attack other posters for it. They have a right to their opinions on PEI and to express them. 

Pondering did you read the comments? Each response ratched up the one before. You don't get to decide that a person comng into a thread on Atlantic Canada questioning the merits about interest on a province that is too insignificant to merit it -- is not a big deal. Nor are you an authority about which is the more offensive.

Has anybody heard if the by-election has been called?  Does a government have to be formed before that can happen?

Interesting to observe that thought out posts, that involve ideas and even some research on topics to contribute original content here are mostly ignored or subject to trolling snide sarcastic comebacks but everyone here likes to get involved in a pile-on that is nothing but shit.

This is the character of this place now and any person here that is whining about the deteriorating content here can look at themselves when much of the time this pile-on stuff is what they are really interested in responding to.

The most popular thing in this place is a witty takedown as nasty as possible or an insult. Best if you can really nail someone in a few words. That is what we are about. Ideas -- well not so much.

I have something else to do now.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Pondering did you read the comments? Each response ratched up the one before. You don't get to decide that a person comng into a thread on Atlantic Canada questioning the merits about interest on a province that is too insignificant to merit it -- is not a big deal. Nor are you an authority about which is the more offensive.

No I am not but neither are you. I did go back and read the thread. It is like you regard all threads to be as sensitive as those in the racism and feminism forums. I think that is a misconception. Your objections were inflamatory. 

105)  Here’s an odd thread? PEI is the smallest province but has got babblers attention in this thread. 

My self they have too much representation as is. 

They should probably be amalgamated with Nova Scotia like cape breton was long ago. 

It was just an off the cuff post indicating surprise that the thread is getting so much attention. Saying it should be amalgamated with Nova Scotia wasn't arguing that it actually should happen. Obviously it couldn't change without PEI's permission and reopening of the Constitution. You took the comment way too seriously. 

Sean)  As for interest to babblers -- the only judge is babblers. This is not up to you and your snide remark on this is deeply offensive.

It wasn't deeply offensive or snide. Dismissive maybe but no more than that. I don't think you interpret your words as a personal insult but I think most people would take it as one. You were not addressing the content of the remark you were passing judgement over it. 

An alternative would be to say: Why do you find it odd that we would discuss PEI? It doesn't happen often but they did just have an election. The Greens had an unusually strong showing that might have implications for the rest of Canada. it appears they are more left than their federal counterpart. Aside from that they also just had a referendum on PR. 

So there is lots to talk about. 

As to their size and amalgamation that would be up to them so it is unlikely they will give up provincial status and the constitution would have to be reopened so no point in discussing it. 

Sean I am not saying this to gang up on you. You know I have a ton of respect for your knowledge and willingness to share. Maybe I am all gunho because of my recent truces but I really think we should just all let go of the past. Start fresh with a determination to try not to insult one another no matter how much we disrespect each other's views. 

Yes Kropotkin does have a bias against the east, or rather anything east of the rockies. He would dearly love part of BC to become an independent country not just a separate province. He denounces Canadian imperialism across the country not just in PEI. I do take that into account when interpreting his posts but it doesn't change the strength or weaknesses of his arguments. You can still just challenge his arguments. 

All the talk about which province PEI should amalgamate with if Canada had PR for provinces is pure theory. It is an intellectual exercise, a flight of fancy. Theoretically all ridings should be the same size by population otherwise some of us have more say than others. I think the conversation only developed because you objected to what was a casual statement in passing. 

We all know there are historical reasons the provinces formed the way they did and why they got the deals they did. I don't know what they are but I know they exist. There is no need to justify PEI's existence. It isn't under threat. 

Just a suggestion given in friendship, when you take offence at something on the board PM someone and wait  a while before responding. 

I think that the PEI Greens look like they will be good partners with the PEI Red Tories. In BC a significant portion of the Green vote comes from "conservatives with composters."  If you believe in the Red Tory philosophy of good stewardship by the ruling class then that must include some measure of environmentalism. It is the neo-con ideology of greed that drives the Conservatives in the rest of the country so this could be a very interesting government.

I have been thinking of a Red Green movement but until now had not really considered a Red Tory Green alliance.

jerrym wrote:

Five individuals had initially applied to be the party’s nominee for the deferred election in the district. A party committee narrowed this down to two nominees who could face a vote by the membership. One was later deemed ineligible by Elections P.E.I.

Huh, what do you know. Even in Canada's smallest province, in a party with a tiny membership, once something real is on the line, the party establishment steps in to throw its weight around.

cco wrote:

jerrym wrote:

Five individuals had initially applied to be the party’s nominee for the deferred election in the district. A party committee narrowed this down to two nominees who could face a vote by the membership. One was later deemed ineligible by Elections P.E.I.

Huh, what do you know. Even in Canada's smallest province, in a party with a tiny membership, once something real is on the line, the party establishment steps in to throw its weight around.

Results (11 of 11 polls): Jameson (Con) 1080, Andrew (GRN) 780, Lavers (LIB), 635, Gay (NDP) 46.