Political over-correctness.

23 posts / 0 new

Sat, 2021-07-17 15:57

Edzell

It is disturbing to see people excoriated, even losing their jobs, for statements that are now politically incorrect but nevertheless contain some element of truth. Is it so inconceiveable to everyone, that some people who participated in the creation of residential schools, did naively but sincerely believe they were helping to establish good works? - Or that many immigrants have come to Canada with no intention of harming anyone; only after arrival gradually learning about the historic & ongiong oppression of the indigenous people (not to mention the ignorance & racist attitudes of many long-established 'white' Canadians)

On that last note, I've recently had a second-generation Canadian say "Well, they sold us their land, didn't they" - which to this immigrant was profoundly ignorant - but maybe not all that uncommon?

A large number of the early immigrants came here simply to escape scourges in their native lands - the Irish famine for example, and the highland 'clearances'. And people have been coming here ever since, often simply on the strength of Canada's modern reputation, however misplaced, as a very tolerant country with a high standard of living. Branding all immigrants as intentional colonizers is over-the-top foolish (and in itself quite intolerant.)

Sat, 2021-07-17 16:44

kropotkin1951

Wilful blindness, thy name is Edzell. My mother's favourite line says it all to your notion that people have good intentions so it is forgivable.

"The way to hell is paved with good intentions."

I'm sorry if it is too politically correct for you since you seem to think is a left versus right wing thing but I see it more as an old catholic adage. Irish immigrants would have understood about the importance of intentions from the "good" English people who lived in the Pale. It seems you refuse to see because you are really comfortable in your blindness, it envelops you and gives you a sense of security and sameness.

Sat, 2021-07-17 17:02

(Reply to #2) #3

Edzell

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Wilful blindness, thy name is Edzell. My mother's favourite line says it all to your notion that people have good intentions so it is forgivable.

"The way to hell is paved with good intentions."

I'm sorry if it is too politically correct for you since you seem to think is a left versus right wing thing but I see it more as an old catholic adage. Irish immigrants would have understood about the importance of intentions from the "good" English people who lived in the Pale. It seems you refuse to see because you are really comfortable in your blindness, it envelops you and gives you a sense of security and sameness.

This is personally insulting which is unintelligent. Additionally it's too far out in left (or is it right?) field to allow any rational response.

Sat, 2021-07-17 17:08

kropotkin1951

I found your original post to be repulsive and racist but instead of just saying that I thought I would try and be more polite.

Sat, 2021-07-17 17:24

kropotkin1951

I had just finished reading this piece about an RCMP killing and had to come to babble to a troll thread. There are a whole new generation of well intentioned people continuing Canada's cultural genocide, so excuse me if I am not polite today.

Lowndes himself had expressed feelings of helplessness and fear of police in an essay written just days before his death.

In the essay, which was distributed by family at his memorial, he spoke about his family history in northern B.C. and how his mother was hidden from Indian agents and the RCMP who sought to remove her from her family in the 1970s.

Shortly after he was born, Lowndes said his mother fled the area for Vancouver, where police and social workers placed him in foster care at age four.

“I was taken from my mother at gunpoint and brought across the city to a foster home,” Lowndes wrote, adding that while in care, he was mentally, physically and sexually abused. He said he was charged with assault twice after defending himself from abuse in both a group home and a foster home.

After being released, he was told the system could not help him and he was left to fend for himself from age 13.

https://thetyee.ca/News/2021/07/16/Family-Mourns-Their-Own-Police-Mourn-...

Sat, 2021-07-17 17:30

kropotkin1951

I'll bet there were many, many well intentioned people in Lowndes life. Human rights law says that intention is irrelevant. Not intending to discriminate is not a defense, in any tribunal across this country or in any international court of justice.

Sat, 2021-07-17 18:51

Edzell

This is babble, sure enough. To paraphrase Kierkegaard:

You understand me so poorly that you won't even understand when I say you don't understand me.

Your loss.

Sat, 2021-07-17 22:40

eastnoireast

Edzell wrote:

It is disturbing to see people excoriated, even losing their jobs, for statements that are now politically incorrect but nevertheless contain some element of truth. Is it so inconceiveable to everyone, that some people who participated in the creation of residential schools, did naively but sincerely believe they were helping to establish good works? -

<snip>

people without clean drinking water are finding hundreds/thousands of their dead stolen babies buried in unmarked stolen land, and you think the problem is political over-correctness?

TROLL

Sat, 2021-07-17 22:56

Ken Burch

OK...I'll bite...so, Edzell, what "grain(s) of truth" do YOU find in long-ago uttered statements that are no longer considered "politically correct"?

Sun, 2021-07-18 08:59

#10

cco

Mind you, he also posted handwringing about the use of profanity here. Clearly his problem wasn't that it was politically incorrect, so...it's a mystery for the ages.

Sun, 2021-07-18 10:01

(Reply to #10) #11

Edzell

eastnoireast wrote:

people without clean drinking water are finding hundreds/thousands of their dead stolen babies buried in unmarked stolen land, and you think the problem is political over-correctness?

TROLL

Thanks for the self-identifying signature, Troll ...............

Sun, 2021-07-18 10:02

(Reply to #11) #12

Edzell

Ken Burch]

OK...I'll bite...so, Edzell, what "grain(s) of truth" do YOU find in long-ago uttered statements that are no longer considered "politically correct"?

[/quote]

........................ and another ttroll!

Sun, 2021-07-18 10:23

(Reply to #12) #13

Edzell

cco wrote:
Mind you, he also posted handwringing about the use of profanity here. Clearly his problem wasn't that it was politically incorrect, so...it's a mystery for the ages.

............... AND another one!! Look. look, everyone; it's the three stooges trying for a comeback!!!

But they wouldn't even understand the comic irony of trying to ridicule my post using knee-jerk 'politically correct' behaviour, the very same type of behaviour my post was criticizing.

"My mother never understood the irony in calling me a son of a bitch" (Jack Nicholson)

Sun, 2021-07-18 11:09

#14

MegB

The level of discourse is getting out of hand here. Disagree if you must, strongly if you must, but do so respectfully.

Sun, 2021-07-18 11:26

(Reply to #14) #15

Edzell

MegB wrote:

The level of discourse is getting out of hand here. Disagree if you must, strongly if you must, but do so respectfully.

Meg, thank you for that.

Sun, 2021-07-18 12:28

#16

Edzell

Edzell wrote:

It is disturbing to see people excoriated, even losing their jobs, for statements that are now politically incorrect but nevertheless contain some element of truth. Is it so inconceiveable to everyone, that some people who participated in the creation of residential schools, did naively but sincerely believe they were helping to establish good works? - Or that many immigrants have come to Canada with no intention of harming anyone; only after arrival gradually learning about the historic & ongiong oppression of the indigenous people <snip.>

Branding all immigrants as intentional colonizers is over-the-top foolish (and in itself quite intolerant.)

That was the gist of my original post. I'll try to give more-respectful responses to the most recent of those that referred to it, and/or to me in a personal way.

------------------------

"people without clean drinking water are finding hundreds/thousands of their dead stolen babies buried in unmarked stolen land, and you think the problem is political over-correctness?

TROLL"

I posted about things I see as political 'over-correctness'. My thoughts about the oppression and appalling mistreatment of indigenous people are not mentioned in my post. Please do not assume that you kmow anything about them.

------------------

OK...I'll bite...so, Edzell, what "grain(s) of truth" do YOU find in long-ago uttered statements that are no longer considered "politically correct"?

I made no mention of long-ago statements. My discomfort is with some current behaviour, examples of which I already alluded to, in my post.

-------------------------

Mind you, he also posted handwringing about the use of profanity here. Clearly his problem wasn't that it was politically incorrect, so...it's a mystery for the ages.

This appears to be ... what? I don't know how to name it, so .... 'no comment.'

------------------------

Thanking you, Meg, for the prompt.

Sun, 2021-07-18 13:45

(Reply to #16) #17

kropotkin1951

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I'll bet there were many, many well intentioned people in Lowndes life. Human rights law says that intention is irrelevant. Not intending to discriminate is not a defense, in any tribunal across this country or in any international court of justice.

"Is it so inconceivable to everyone, that some people who participated in the creation of residential schools, did naively but sincerely believe they were helping to establish good works?"

Edzell's views are just flat out wrong when it comes to the discrimination and human rights abuses we are talking about in Canada. Intention is not a migrating factor if you work inside an institution that is engaged in genocide. That idea is a step below, "we were only following orders" on a hierarchy of bad reasons for one's actions.

In fact there were many Canadians and Germans in the 1930's who believed that eugenics were a good idea. I am sure that when the German government instituted its solution to inferior genetics in the species, starting with people with disabilities, many people with good intentions were involved. In Canada after this practice was started it seemed that it was mostly indigenous women that needed "fixed."

Nellie McClung was a strong advocate for the rights of women. In addition, she worked on causes including temperance, factory safety, old age pensions, and public nursing services.

She was also, along with some of her Famous Five colleagues, a strong supporter of eugenics. She believed in involuntary sterilization of the disabled and played a major role in pushing through the Alberta Sexual Sterilization Act passed in 1928.

Indeed some of our most progressive people believed in this evil. Residential schools and forced sterilization were just part of the strategies employed to eradicate the original owners of Western Canada.

Since Meg has asked for politeness I will state that IMO his "views" are racist tropes but he could be well intentioned and only misinformed, not a racist.

Sun, 2021-07-18 14:50

(Reply to #17) #18

Edzell

Edzell wrote:

"Is it so inconceivable to everyone, that some people who participated in the creation of residential schools, did naively but sincerely believe they were helping to establish good works?"

This was the question (albeit rhetorical) that Krop seems to be using to piggy-back onto varrious other issues of his own perceiving, including what he alleges to be my 'flat out wrong' views about discriminatioin and abuse of indigenous people. He has no knowledge whatsoever on any of my views other than what I've expressed on here, and he has no right to assume any others. If he won't stick appropriately - and respectfully - to the topic I opened, I ask that he open one of his own, that's about issues and not about other members.

Kropotkin wrote:

Since Meg has asked for politeness I will state that IMO his "views" are racist tropes but he could be well intentioned and only misinformed, not a racist.

This is very offensive. That it is brazenly, sarcastically and so absurdly described as 'politeness' is beyond belief.

Sun, 2021-07-18 15:53

#19

kropotkin1951

I am not guessing at your views I am responding to the ones you post. The quote is "your view" and it is at best an incorrect analysis of the individual responsibility of members of organizations that are engaged in genocide. It is not inconceivable it is in fact considered a racist trope by many people. The white man's burden is a terrible yoke to carry. The christian missionaries all believed in the goodness of their intentions while committing truly evil deeds. Others, like the people you want to absolve of blame, just looked on.

That you started a thread that upgrades the left bashing idea of "PC thinking" to "POC thinking" I find a wonderfully interesting thing. I am sure you meant no irony and were very well intentioned.

Sun, 2021-07-18 17:15

(Reply to #19) #20

Edzell

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I am not guessing at your views I am responding to the ones you post. The quote is "your view" and it is at best an incorrect analysis of the individual responsibility of members of organizations that are engaged in genocide. It is not inconceivable it is in fact considered a racist trope by many people. The white man's burden is a terrible yoke to carry. The christian missionaries all believed in the goodness of their intentions while committing truly evil deeds. Others, like the people you want to absolve of blame, just looked on.

That you started a thread that upgrades the left bashing idea of "PC thinking" to "POC thinking" I find a wonderfully interesting thing. I am sure you meant no irony and were very well intentioned.

Just talk it out among yourself. I wish you peace. Truly.

Sun, 2021-07-18 20:07

#21

JKR

What is "political over-correctness"? How is it different than "political correctness"? As far as I can tell "political correctness" is just common decency and basic good manners.

Sun, 2021-07-18 21:38

#22

Edzell

JKR, if you're seriously interested in an intelligent, civil, open minded discussion please PM me and we can take it from there. I'd enjoy that but any kind of respectful interchange is amazingly hard to find.

Sun, 2021-07-18 23:09

(Reply to #22) #23

eastnoireast

MegB wrote:

The level of discourse is getting out of hand here. Disagree if you must, strongly if you must, but do so respectfully.

fair enough.